Hot Flash: Embracing Menopause at Work and Beyond with Tina Pomroy

[00:00:00] Speaker A: It's spiritual, it's social. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast? [00:00:04] Speaker B: Yes. [00:00:05] Speaker A: We actually don't give a shit about certain things that really don't matter anymore. We become like, almost like a different person, but it's not really that we're different so much as we are expanded. And I like that idea that this is an expansion and it can be an adventure. It can be a really tough adventure to go through perimenopause to get to this place of, I don't know, some people call it awakening, expansion, whatever you want to call it, but women are like, I don't give an F anymore. [00:00:38] Speaker B: Hello, everyone. I'm Jess Chapman, and this is Wired to Work, a podcast about how we work and how to make work better for everyone. So today we're going to talk about a topic that I think is incredibly important and really under discussed, and that is the topic of menopause and perimenopause. Now, fellas, don't switch off. If there are people in your life, you need to be talking about this stuff, and we certainly need to be talking about it when it comes to work. New research shows that up to 60% of women in perimenopause report cognitive disruptions like brain fog, forgetfulness, poor focus, and so on. And it certainly happened to me and came as quite an unwelcome surprise. So I don't think we have enough conversations about this transition, and I'm super excited to be having that conversation today. So I'm joined today by Tina Pomeroy. Tina is a leadership coach, counsellor, educator, and wellness practitioner whose own journey through midlife inspired her graduate research on perimenopause and mental health. Tina blends deep professional experience with mindfulness, somatic work, and decades of practical wisdom to help women thrive through all kinds of transitions, including menopause. This episode is about having a great conversation with Tina and leveraging her wisdom and her practicality to help us talk about a topic that is really under discussed. And I can't think of anybody better to start the season with. I am super thrilled to have you join us on the first season of the rebranded podcast. I couldn't think of anybody better in terms of your journey. And I remember meeting you, gosh, how many years ago now? 10 or more? [00:02:09] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, more than that. I think 15 maybe. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Yes. And I did think at the time. The universe is a reason why the two of us have been brought together, and this might be part of it. So love to just hear a little bit from you on what what prompted specifically this research around perimenopause, like getting involved in the perimenopausal stuff? [00:02:30] Speaker A: Well, my own personal experience, actually. I remember my husband sending me. It's a little clip, a little video, and it was about is this perimenopause? And it was hilarious, so funny. And then I was like, oh my gosh, like this is me. And I went through some very serious depression during that time. Nobody knew what was happening to me. I had all kinds of medical professionals. I went to every helper possible and no one could figure it out. And so as I went through that process, towards the end, I actually realized I was in perimenopause all the time because then I hit menopause and, and I knew I started telling people about this and a lot of women had the same story and they felt so isol isolated and alone. And then I was doing in my counseling degree and needed to do a thesis and I was like, this is a great topic. So there we go. That's what started it all. [00:03:35] Speaker B: Yes, I, I, some, some of the stuff that's now on social media about permanent pause is hilarious. I've seen a couple of really great ones about the perimenopause fairy who wakes you up in the middle of the night. And there's a couple of really good ones with the fella, because you have to excuse my language on this one, where it's a man talking about what it's like to live with a perimenopausal spouse. And she's in the background and she's like, love you. And he says, okay, thanks. And then she goes f you. And he's like, okay, thanks. And then she's like, love you. So there's some real kind of reality check and all that. But I was surprised for me just one, how much of an impact it's actually had. Like, I really wasn't expecting it and how little we talk about it. Like considering how many women there are in the world and how many of us are at that stage of life and at work, we really are not having any conversations about perimenopause and menopause and certainly not on the effects it's going to have to you doing your work job every day. [00:04:31] Speaker A: So yeah, it's, it has grown quite a bit actually. When I first started my research, when I came up with my topic, it was 2020. I didn't actually dig into my research until 2022, even 2023. And it was, it changed in 2022. There was this big Study that came out in Canada from the Menopause foundation of Canada. That's that talk. Start talking about menopause. Started normalizing this. Beginning of normalizing this conversation. And all of a sudden there were other social media channels starting or accounts, and all of a sudden people started talking about it. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so different from two years ago. And if you look today, it's almost overwhelming. And all the things that are being talked about are not necessarily accurate. So there are conversations, but they're not necessarily always accurate. And they' very medical. So there's all these other parts of perimenopause and menopause that are not talked about still, especially, like in the workplace is an excellent example. Now, the Menopause foundation of Canada did come out with another study about menopause in the workplace. So that was a great study. You check it out. And so, you know, there are shifts and way more than when I went through this experience. But you're right, it's still not a normal narrative to talk about it in a holistic way, especially. [00:06:04] Speaker B: No. What are some of the biggest things that you see and you think, I wish everybody knew that instead? Or that's not quite right. And can we. I wish we could tell people that. [00:06:16] Speaker A: How much time do we have? No, I think that the main thing that I kind of would like people to learn more about is the holistic nature of menopause because it's not only a hormone deficiency. It's. And I wouldn't even call it a hormone deficiency. Our hormones do change. Absolutely. We do lose some estrogen and we lose some. And we can talk about that. But, like, it's also about spiritual. It's spiritual, it's social. We actually don't really. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast? [00:06:52] Speaker B: Yes. [00:06:52] Speaker A: We actually don't give a shit about certain things that really don't matter anymore. We become like, almost like a different person. But it's not really that we're different so much as we are expanded. And I like that idea that this is an expansion and it can be an adventure, can be a really tough adventure to go through perimenopause to get to this place of. I don't know, some people call awakening, expansion, whatever you want to call it, but women are like, I don't give an F anymore. Yeah. [00:07:22] Speaker B: You can also use that word which is warm. [00:07:24] Speaker A: Okay. [00:07:25] Speaker B: I saw. I saw a snippet on one of the social media platforms, which was about like, I'm paramount 05 left to give. And I was like, yes, I have myself in way more than I ever used to have to. [00:07:38] Speaker A: Yes, yes. And if you put that into the workplace, that's powerful. A woman that's not no longer interested in the drama or a person. And I'm using the word woman because my research was on cisgendered women. But, you know, there's other folks that go through menopause, some transgender folks and non binary folks. I also did my research in like, I didn't dig into the surgical, menopause, or, you know, chemo or anything like that. So it was just a very natural perimenopause phase that I did my research on. So I speak from that lens, but menopause brain now, because I can't remember what track I was on. [00:08:23] Speaker B: And that's how it goes. [00:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah, See, excellent example. But in the workplace, you know, you have a. A person who menopausal. Because once we reach menopause, we're there for the rest of our lives and we are on the go. We are. We know what we want, we know what's important. We don't waste our energy on the stuff that no longer. Right. And so that's actually a really great employee or leader. [00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah. But I think one of the challenges with it is that then there is likely a shift in how you show up. Right. So people have worked with you for a period of time and they've been used this version of you that is perhaps more parametered, more thoughtful, a bit more concerned about. Do I talk about that? More tolerant of things that perhaps I'm less tolerant of now. And then you hit this point and you're like, no, that's not how my brain is functioning anymore. Those are not the things that I wish to prioritize. But people don't know why that's happening. So because we're not talking about it, there's not a conversation to say like, this is the shift. These are the types of things that you will see. And so people are left to figure out why they suddenly get a different version of you than they've had for the last 5, 10, 15, in some cases, 25, 30 years for people. Right. So I think that's a. That that's part of the challenge for me is how do we talk about this and make the connection on why you are doing things differently than you did before. [00:09:41] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really great point. And actually it doesn't happen overnight. It is a transition, and it is. That's what perimenopause is. Right. And it can be 10 years. So it's happening. It's just we're trying to hide it because we're not talking about it and we're feel ashamed of what's happening to us. So we try to hide. And when we feel maybe we feel a really low day, we just don't show up to work. We're not going to work to talk about how we feel. Maybe we have have some forgetfulness. Oh, we're not going to tell our co workers or our bosses or even our employees that we have forgetfulness or we can't remember. Right. So that transition actually occurs over a long period of time usually. So it's not all of a sudden, but then we get to a place where we're like, yeah, whatever. [00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah, the forgetful business is hilarious. I told a story the day. So I'm obviously a consultant. I spend my life doing. Helping people solve relatively challenging situation. And I was in a meeting and I couldn't remember the word for scissors and found myself doing this in the meeting. [00:10:47] Speaker A: I love it. [00:10:48] Speaker B: And then was like, excellent. That is really selling the brain capacity that I have to the person that I'm talking to. But that, I mean, that's the reality of where I am at. And I've started saying, oh, that's perimenopause brain. Sorry, folks, and carrying on. But again, I work for myself. It's a little bit different. And to have to show up and say those things. I think we should probably actually talk a little bit about what actually is perimenopause. Menopause. Because I am hoping that there's people listening to this who are younger and not actually sitting there going, that's my brain right now. And some fellas tuning in to think about what that means for the people in their lives who might be at this transition period. So what actually are we talking about with perimenopause and menopause? [00:11:25] Speaker A: Yeah. So first of all, the language. You know, perimenopause is not even a medical term, but we all know it. Right. So it is this time when our hormones begin to fluctuate. And it can start in our 30s and it can start in her 40s, and it can last for 10, 12 years. And so that's perimenopause. Now, some people have heard the word pre menopause. That is a period of time before perimenopause, typically regular periods and stuff. Not necessarily, but that's that time before your hormones are starting to fluctuate to prepare for menopause. And so that Period of time. Also, some people might use the word menopause transition interchangeably. Menopause transition is more when the periods begin to get irregular. So you might be going through perimenopause, actually for a lot of years before your periods are the change that you see, you might see a lot of other changes. And so that period of time, the hormones kind of go like. There's a book called the Estrogen Storm, because it is a storm. So I actually have a slide. It's too bad I can't show the slide, because estrogen goes, you know, like it's kind of fluctuating, you know, during our cycle. And then it starts fluctuating and declining. And it goes like this, up, down, up, down, like these big fluctuations as it declines. And while it's fluctuating, progesterone is also declining, but it's kind of declining more sharply and not as erratic. And so what happens is you get these periods of time when you have a lot of estrogen and much lower progesterone that you used to have. And then. And it's like a huge difference. And our brains are trying to adjust and adapt all the time. Not only is estrogen and progesterone fluctuating, but also other hormones, dopamine, serotonin, melatonin, insulin, all these things are also cortisol. You know, all these other hormones are being impacted as well. So you can see why it feels like a storm, right? Yeah. And so during that time, we have lots of some. A lot of people use the word symptoms, and a lot of them are physiological, but I like to use the word changes. So I use the words interchangeably. And every woman with ovaries will go through menopause. They'll go through perimenopause, too, but it will look different. And about 95. The research suggests that about 95% of women will have some symptoms or changes that are noticeable during perimenopause. There will be some women that go through without really any troubles, and they'll hit menopause, and, you know, the period stops. But most women will experience something, according to the research. So in this chart, it's from the Menopause foundation of Canada, and it. And it categorizes 30 symptoms. But honestly, some research or resources or sources say 49 symptoms, some say 100. You know, so these are kind of grouped into four categories and 30 symptoms. And the four categories are cognition and sleep symptoms, physical symptoms, mood and mental health symptoms, and genitourinary and sexual health symptoms. And so, you know, we talk about physical symptoms and sleep and cognition symptoms pretty regularly now. We never used to, but we kind of more so now. So, like sleep and cognitive brain fog, forgetfulness. We just chatted about that a little bit. We laughed a little bit, you know, because sometimes it's just easier to laugh it off and just move along with it. Concentration can be really tough during this time. But the whole idea of lack of sleep is also a huge issue because, of course, if we can't sleep, then it affects everything else, right? So a lot of people struggle with getting to sleep or staying asleep during this time. The physical symptoms, we all know hot flashes. And, you know, for a long time, that's what perimenopause was. Or even menopause just generally was hot flashes. And then we get there and we're like, oh, it's not hot flashes. You might have hot flashes. You might have them. Seriously. But it's so much more. So we know that. And night sweats, of course, they're called vasomotive symptoms. Your period changes. We all know that part too. But there's also a lot of physical symptoms that are not talked about. There's really some, like, odd ones that. I mean, people will say. If you have people commenting, they might say, oh, I have this happen or that happen. Itchy ears and like, all these, like, what? That's perimenopause. But some of the normal ones are not normal. Common ones are like body aches, joint aches, you may have heard. Fatigue is really big. Energy changes. Headaches and migraines is a big one. Skin changes, hair changes, heart palpitations. That was actually, when I look back, that was my first symptom. And I was 39 years old. I had no idea that's what it was. I was checked out. My heart was healthy. I was like, why am I getting these heart palpitations? And it was the beginning of perimenopause for me. Dryness, dry skin, dry eyes, you know, dry mouth, sometimes dental problems. So, you know, these are all, like, we would never have thought these are perimenopause. And then there's the mood and mental health symptoms. And we've heard probably of mood swings and anxiety and depression. And with depression, if you've had previous depression or pmdd, then you actually have a higher risk of having depression during perimenopause. And hormonal depression is like, it's still depression, but it's different and needs to be treated differently than other kinds of depression. And so a lot of times, you know, if you're depressed, you might get antidepressants. You may or may not get therapy or counseling along with that. Research does suggest that it's best to have them combined. And maybe antidepressants are not what actually you need. You need hormone replacement therapy because that. It's a hormonal thing. It's really hard to this. These are all like interrelated, the mental health, the physical health. You know, all of the things are so interrelated, it's really difficult to say this is what it is. So, you know, other mood and mental health symptoms would be like just crying. Crying spells. You know, you feel great and all of a sudden you're just down on the floor in a pile crying. [00:18:21] Speaker B: Oh, I cried Stranger Things. I know. Then. Then I know I'm hormonal when I'm crying. When I'm watching Stranger Things, something more emotional maybe, but that would not be one that I would think would normally trigger me to have some tears. But, yes, I caught myself crying to Stranger Things, so that would be fine. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, yeah. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Part of the challenge, I think, Dana, is like, when you talk about all these. These kind of changes symptoms. There are also things that can happen for other reasons. Right. So I think it's the joining up the dots part. So, like, I would. I had frozen shoulder and I found all of a sudden I was itchy all the time. And I started buying back scratches for things. I'm getting too personal for people now, but that's what happening. And then like, my concentration was going and I, like, I've always been someone that slept like a lot. Like, my sleep has never been a problem. And now I don't sleep terribly well. But it's. It. I didn't necessarily put the pieces together because they're all things that could be happening. So I was like, oh, I'm obviously stressed about the business. That's why I'm not sleeping. Maybe I need to do something to do more relaxation, more meditation. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I got itchy. Maybe I changed my washing powder and like, that's what's doing it. And other things. And so I was kind of writing all these pieces off and there wasn't really anything that said, actually, Jess, you need to join up the dots here. And this is something that's happening to you. And it was only because I happened to be in a conversation with someone who was on hrt and I said, man, I can't remember anything these days and I'm not sleeping well. And I got frozen shoulder. And she said, oh, do you do know that those are all symptoms of perimenopause, right? Maybe you want to go get that checked out that I had even put two, two and two together. So how do we help people join up the dots and what they might be seeing are things they might attribute to something else. Like, do you have any suggestions on that front? [00:20:00] Speaker A: I mean, I wish I had the answer, to be honest. Our healthcare system tends to, and I think, think like one. Before I say this, I'd like to say that our physicians and medical professionals that see women or people going through menopause are taxed. They have so much to do. They're working in a system that's so stretched, they don't have time to go learn the new research on menopause, Right. They also don't know necessarily where to refer if they don't have the answers, because obgyns don't necessarily have the answer either, by the way. There's very little training in menopause. So their training is to treat each symptom individually. And that's what they do. Oh, you have frozen shoulder. Let's treat the frozen shoulder. Oh, you can't sleep. Let's give you a sleeping pill or whatever it is. Meanwhile. Yeah, like, all these symptoms are if you look at it holistically and address the whole person instead of the symptoms chasing one symptom at a time, it's like, oh, I'm 42 years old and I have all these symptoms and there's no reason for any of them. I can't figure out why. Well, guess what? It's perimenopause, right? It's like, it's not a diagnosis. We're not sick. There's nothing wrong with us. We don't need to be fixed. Right. We're not diminishing our capacity. You know, none of that is actually true. It's just a transition. And when we do say, knowledge is power, when women can go to their physicians and say, I learned all of this from a reliable source. Here's the research, here's what Menopause foundation of Canada says here, right? And when they can actually go to their healthcare provider with the research themselves and say, I have all these things happening for no reason. I think I'm in perimenopause. And then the physician might actually say, yeah, I think you are too. Especially with a greater awareness now than the like, I am physician. Right? And she was like, no, you're too young for that. And so there's still. That attitude is still out there, but it is Changing slowly. So really, knowledge is power and knowing what the symptoms are or what they can be, it doesn't mean you're going to have them, but it's possible. [00:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think the comment about treating all medical things holistically is a great point for Western medicine, and I totally agree with you. My view of healthcare is a lot of people trying to do the very best they can in a system that is struggling with the weight of everything we need. But there's no doubt, I think Western medicine looks much more at things in individual functions. And I have a family member who's super sick right now, and they don't join up the dots between what's happening with him. Right. Everything is a separate issue when it's not. He's one person and it's one holistic system. So I think that's a really good point. I mean, how do we tackle some of this in the workplace? So obviously we're talking about people who are not medical professionals don't even have that basis of understanding, let alone anything else to work on. It's a topic that some people are going to be uncomfortable talking about. Right. So it's not necessarily something you might know how to address or talk about with somebody. And I'd say, like, most things I think of when we're talking about people, you can even be aware of what's happening with people and talk to them, that would be great. But, like, how do we help? What should we be thinking about if we're in a workplace? How do I think about how to best support people at this stage? [00:23:24] Speaker A: I will say that talking about it lessens the discomfort. So those that are comfortable talking about it, talk about it. Go ahead, talk about it. Right? Yeah. Oh, what's this? Oh, my Perimeter. Right. So, like, if you're comfortable saying something about. About yourself or just generally this is happening to women across the world, you know, then. Then bring it, because I think that helps other people talk about it in the workplace, you know. You know, policies are a great place to start, but as we know, they're no good unless you use them as a guide. And they're flexible, especially with menopause, something like menopause, because every woman is different. What a woman needs today might be different than tomorrow, and what you need and I need are going to be different. So there needs to be flexibility around helping a woman feel like she can still do her work, but needs to, like, take the break when she takes it or take time off when she needs it, because guess what? We might have a low energy today and not be very productive and maybe need a day off. Even tomorrow we might be so productive. We got three days work done in one day, right? So like, it's not that we can't do it, it means we have to do it differently. So if a workplace can view that with more discernment, like and, and, and flexibility, then just let it flow more. I know that's really hard in some workplaces because things have to be so structured. But that ability to be flexible during a woman's transition time makes huge difference to how she works. I mean, women are leaving the workforce, right? Women are leaving their jobs. They're not applying for leadership positions because they're afraid that they're going to be in that position where they're just going to burn out or they're already burnt out. But if we could care for that with flexibility, then maybe they won't and maybe they could stay and apply for those positions. But also in the workplace, it's not a bad place to have peer support, create a group so that they can talk together. All the people that are going through menopause can actually get together monthly and talk about it. Yeah, right. And create workplace. You know, be open. Leadership can be open to, oh, this is what you need. Okay, let's do that. If that makes sense. [00:25:50] Speaker B: It does to me. I mean, we, we often work with leaders and the perpetual fear of leadership right now is, I don't know what to do with this. Like, I'm not an expert in this, whatever this is. It could be mental health, it could be someone's general sickness, it could be perimenopause and menopause, it doesn't matter. Everybody is scared to death of getting it wrong. Like saying something, getting it wrong, not doing it. Like this is going to be a problem. I'm going to end up in tribunal. Lord knows what. Most of the time when I say to people is you don't need to be an expert in anything. You just need to be able to listen, accept that somebody is experiencing something that maybe you don't understand, but that is real for them right now and figure out how you best help them in this moment. And if we even started there, I think it will be good. But I love the idea of like being encouraging a peer networking group because if you are a senior leader and this doesn't mean anything to you, if you're either haven't experienced this or you're male and it's not relevant to you, doesn't mean it's not happening. You don't have to be in the group, you don't have to be having the conversations. You don't have to even bone up on menopause. You're just allowing people to connect with one another, to share their experiences and have some support. So that should be a relatively straightforward thing to do, I think. But I'm sure someone else. [00:27:03] Speaker A: Right. I will note another thing that happens in some workplaces as jokes and humor can be excellent. We've already used it in this podcast. We've talked. Right. We've laughed at some things and joked. And it was my very first, like, inspiration to go into this line of research was something funny. Right. But we have to be careful, careful about jokes because those jokes about women going through and the forgetfulness, the hot flashes, it can diminish how severe those, those, those changes are. It can also really create a false narrative around what menopause actually is. So, so it's very, you know, we need to use some discernment about when and where and how we use humor, especially in the workplace. [00:27:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's really valid. I, I tend to, to be joking about myself, but I think I'd have to regulate that. If I was having a conversation with somebody else's experience and their experience was very different to mine, then that would not be an appropriate. But there is also, to your point, some camaraderie that can come from feeling having the same experiences and laughing about the, the challenges of them. So it's a, it's a, it's a judgment call. If in doubt, don't would be most of my rule on everything in life. If in doubt, don't. Yeah. [00:28:20] Speaker A: I mean, if you had a peer support group and everyone in there is going through perimenopause or have been through perimenopause, that's a great place to joke and it provides relief for us and normalization. Right. But then outside that support group, maybe that's not always a great place. [00:28:38] Speaker B: Well, your, your whole characterization of it earlier in this conversation around emphasizing the transition and that it's not a lessening in any way and that actually it is simply a, an evolution to a new stage of thinking, operating and being as a person is really interesting because I don't think we often see that characterization of it. If anything, it's probably more what you described around. We talk about medical components of menopause and it is a medical thing that's happening to women. So your idea that it's an expansion, I think is a really interesting one. What kind of led you to think about it, to talk about it that way? [00:29:16] Speaker A: Well, first, when I was doing my research, like just a literature review, I started reading these articles about how our cultures impact, like different cultures experience menopause differently. And also that our beliefs about aging can influence our experience in menopause. Our beliefs about menopause can, obviously. And I'm like, hey, wait a second. If this is like, purely a medical thing, then wouldn't it be more consistent across the board? And so I was like, oh, yeah, like, first of all, it's not consistent and every woman is different. And second, different societies have different values and different experiences with menopause. In some societies, menopause is actually fantastic. It means that a woman is wise and, and, and like powerful. Right? Whereas in. In our Western modern world, it's more about diminishing. Now we're changing that. That is starting to change. But that. That's what kind of influenced my thinking, that this is more holistic. You see women, powerful women, right, in their later 70s, 80s, 90s, and it's like, well, how come they're so powerful? And then you see these other women, you know, kind of. Or this perception of women being, you know, declining. It's like, well, I mean, I'm not going to get into the history of this because it would take too long. But historically, when women. Women's health is not researched as much. [00:30:53] Speaker B: No, women. [00:30:54] Speaker A: Women were hysterical when they're going through perimenopause. That's why, you know, a hysterectomy is called what it is. Oh my gosh. There' much stuff. I read about this stuff, and of course that's in our DNA. So, like, we have those messages imprinted on us. We can't help it. And so it's going to take a lot to shift that. But this idea of expansion and spirituality, so many women started when women's voices started being heard because they've been silenced for so long. And we're just starting to listen to women's voices. And all of a sudden they were talking about this being a spiritual awakening, an expansion, a. Like a great thing. I don't give a anymore, right? I can't. I care about the things that are important to me and, and that are important in the world. But I don't care about that drama over there or that over there. That doesn't mean anything for me. And so, so I, in my own experience, have had that as well. And then I started talking and of course, a lot of my Friends are in this phase either perimenopause or just past menopause. And they're also the same. And I'm like, that's worth, even if it's not evidence based research that is so worth talking about. This idea that we, we're expanding, we are becoming greater, you know, and, and it's not all medical. Yeah. There's physiological stuff happening. There is, but that doesn't mean that we're no longer intelligent, capable, attractive. Like, think about the beauty industry and the messages that we're getting about aging and how we need to fix our wrinkles and plump our lips. And I'm not judging anyone that does any of that stuff. Right. Natural. And that's great if people want to do that. But we have to think about why are we getting, we're getting those messages that that's what's beautiful. Right. And so when we start to shift out of that, like. No, what's beautiful is the fact that you don't, you're awakened or you're enlightened and I don't like to use the word enlightenment. You're expanding. [00:33:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:33:15] Speaker A: Growing as a person. [00:33:17] Speaker B: So. [00:33:18] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's like all kind of interconnected, but, but it's. I like that idea way more than, oh my God, our hormones are going away and all the, we're losing everything. [00:33:29] Speaker B: We're losing. I'm losing my mind. I'm a fat man. I certainly don't feel diminished in any capacity. Maybe people around me might argue the toss on that one, I don't know. But I don't, I don't feel diminished. And I like, I like the reference to transition and evolution. Right. This is the next, the next phase of people. Where, where I do think the medical stuff can be helpful though is, is in reference to what you said about like the hysterical nature of women. So I do think it's helpful for people to understand these are chemical changes that are happening in a person's brain. This is not just women deciding once they get to a certain age that they've had enough of everything and they're not going to be dramatic anymore. Like, this is about actual physiological, chemical shifts in the brain that causes to do certain things. So can you talk a little bit more about the, the actual mechanics of what happens in menopause and what things those things trigger? So you reeled off earlier a number of things like oestroge, progesterone, dopamine, so on cortisol, can you just explain what some of those are likely to do [00:34:28] Speaker A: for people oh, yeah, sure. Now, I'm not a doctor, so I. I'm not that. I'm not giving this from a doctor. [00:34:36] Speaker B: It's not medical advice, and it's not a medical. [00:34:38] Speaker A: Not at all. Okay. [00:34:39] Speaker B: It's your understanding of the situation? Yes. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Based on my reading. And I. And I actually. I even have notes because I. I don't want to get it wrong. Yeah, perfect. And there's so much misinformation out there. And I always say, listen to me with a grain of. Of salt. This is my lens. From my research, my experience, I'm sure I've talked to thousands of women. I mean, There was only 75 in my study, but, like, I've talked to hundreds and hundreds of women about this. So estrogen is the one we know about a lot. And so I actually heard this called the hormone of self sacrifice. And so as we lose estrogen, we stop sacrificing ourselves and we start to actually think about ourselves more and give ourselves more care and understanding. I don't know. You know, it's a challenge. It's like I said, it's a transition and an adjustment. We're not used to it, and our society is not used to it. So we're still learning how to do this, I think. But as that we also have estrogen receptors, like, all over our body. And Lisa Mascani, Dr. Lisa Moscani, she's a neuroscientist and a writer, and she wrote the book the Menopause Brain. [00:35:51] Speaker B: Yes. [00:35:51] Speaker A: I haven't read it all yet, but, like, it's fascinating. And. And she's like, this is about the brain. It's not only about our ovaries. It's like she talks about bikini medicine. I don't know if you've ever heard that term, but, you know, like, women's health is all about the bikini, the bottom part of the bikini, and anything beyond that. Like, not, not, not relevant. Not relevant. And so, you know, she talks a lot about the brain, and I love what I've read in it so far. But, you know, there's estrogen receptors in the brain. And so like you said earlier, like, it affects our brain when our estrogen is fluctuating. You can imagine what's happening to all the processes in our brain. So then there's progesterone. Progesterone is also known as the calming hormone. So as progesterone goes down. [00:36:42] Speaker B: I have not. I have not. [00:36:46] Speaker A: Right, so we're all ready. [00:36:47] Speaker B: Knockom. Knockom. No. [00:36:50] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, there is a study or several studies that suggest that mindfulness is a really good intervention for your mental health during per. Menopause. And menopause. So I, I love that because I, I have taught it and I'm like, yes, excellent. [00:37:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:08] Speaker A: But, yeah, progesterone goes down as well. And so if it's the calming hormone that kind of produces that sense of calm, then no wonder we're starting to see irritability and even rage. Rage is something that happens during perimenopause because our hormones are messed up. It's not because we're bitches. It's because our hormones are actually causing that emotion. And we're not calm. We don't know what to do with it. We're not taught what to do with it. It. So then cortisol, of course, is the stress hormone. And we know this and we can actually impact cortisol with diet and exercise and lifestyle. But it is, it does change with the other hormonal changes. It also changes the stress. So here we are getting such the interrelated aspects like as we have symptoms or changes and maybe we don't know what's going on. We're going to the doctor and the massage therapist and the fit. We don't know what's happening to us. We're under more stress. Just that alone, let alone the fact that we're in midlife and we are, you know, taking care of kids and taking care of adult parents and in leadership positions and whatever, you know, we have all the things going on. You know, this is not all stress. But cortisol can play a part, right? It plays a part and it can increase and it can cause our nervous systems to be in stress activation. So that, so that can happen. There's also a hormone called oxytocin, which is the love hormone. And estrogen supports oxytocin. And I don't know the medical, I don't know all the reasons why or how, but if estrogen is declining, then you can see how our love hormone oxytocin will also decline. Now we can get that naturally. We can hug a pet, we can hug a person. We can give ourselves a self hug. There's ways we can increase our oxytocin, but it is something to consider. You know, we're not. Maybe we don't feel so loving anymore. [00:39:21] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, oxytocin is tied to things like bonding. Right. And emotional regulation. So similar to progesterone, which is calming, oxytocin is about how much we notice what goes on around the social cues. How we respond to those things. So you imagine now if your estrogen has gone down and you're less interested in regulating and more focused on what do I need right now, you're less calm and your less attitude to social cues, you're going to show up as a slightly different human being than you did before. [00:39:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right. It influences how we behave and how we feel and our thoughts, everything really, our energy, everything. So that's the main ones like testosterone goes down too, which can affect our energy, our libido, our mood can all be reduced muscle, you know, so that's why you might hear a lot about when we get in this phase of our lives, we need, we need strength training and, and because our cortisol is actually going up often, high impact, high aerobic activity is not necessarily what we need so much of. Not that we don't need any of it, but we really need to balance it out with strength training, you know, and that's why even the way we exercise has changed for optimal health. Of course. And there are going to be people that are different. This is just a general generalization, but [00:40:39] Speaker B: that's really helpful because you see the thing, I don't know about everybody else, but, you know, I play games like a human being on my phone and I get the ads that pop up that obviously tailored to what they think I want at this stage of my life. Some of them relevant, not some of them not so much so. But a lot of them were in that like, you should be doing strength training, don't do aerobic exercise. But it never actually explained, explains why. It just says, oh, don't do aerobic exercise because you're now old. That's actually what it says because all of them are exercising for seniors too, which is not quite where I would yet put myself, but they are all about like, you need to be doing strength training and not doing this and do, you know, tai chi walking and all these other things that are low stress without ever explaining the role that cortisol has in how we function and why those things are perhaps less wanted at this stage, depending on you and who you are. Right. Because no two brains are the same. Same. [00:41:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And like even our mood swings can be, you know, partially explained with the impact on serotonin and dopamine. Right. And right. It's like that those hormones change too. And, and I will mention also that women who are in perimenopause or menopause might also have, number one, they might have traits that look like adhd because like their dopamine is being affected. They also might actually have ADHD or autism. And those traits are just starting to be realized. They, they managed right up. Right. But they were able to cope and mask and had no idea. And then in their 40s and 50s and 60s, they're being diagnosed with these, with ADHD or autism. And so they're like, what is going on with me? So it look like it and it's not, or it actually could be and that you've been coping all along. [00:42:30] Speaker B: Yeah, it's awesome. If there were two things, if the two pieces of Tina practical wisdom you could share with our listeners about handling this like it's a, it's an expansion, not a retraction, is not a diminishing of people, it is a transition. But if there were two points you would want to make to the world, what would they be? [00:42:51] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, I know I put [00:42:53] Speaker B: you on the spot. Sorry. [00:42:58] Speaker A: I really think one might be that you need to listen to yourself. So you, you can get all the knowledge, but you need to apply it to your unique self and it's not going to look the same as everyone else. And what you need might be really different and it might be out there and it might actually not be out there yet. So I think that's one thing really learning how to listen to your gut or to yourself and know. Like, we know, we go to the doctor and we kind of know. I mean, lots of times we don't know what's going on medically, but we know there's something wrong or there's something different. And so listen to that and really stand up for yourself. Go get the knowledge. There's a lot of stuff out there. Even if it's wrong, bring it to your physician, they'll be able to tell you if it's right or wrong, probably, I imagine, or you know, a health practitioner, because there's lots of people that can help. So get the knowledge. You have agency, you know yourself. So I think that is the number one thing. And although we listen to others, I mean, this goes for anything, right? It's good to get the all everyone's input and then listen to yourself and see how that might apply to you. So that's the first thing. I think the second thing is the mental health piece is really not talked about a lot here and it is, it really does impact more women that are willing to talk about it. And I didn't get into some of the research on that, but, like, there's a lot of people out there not talking about it because they're still ashamed. There's still a lot of stigma attached to, to depression particularly. Anxiety is more kind of normalized and okay. Like it's. Oh, you have anxiety. Yeah, me too. Right. We live in a more anxious world. Yeah, it's kind of okay to have, you know, like, it's, you know, socially, we're like, oh, yeah, yeah, everyone has anxiety. Not that everyone does, but we're, we feel okay with that. We're comfortable with that. Whereas with depression, we're not really so comfortable with. And there's still this stigma attached to it. And it absolutely happens during perimenopause and menopause. And I think that we need to go get help. We need to be aware that this is something and it's important for us to talk about it. Go to a therapist, go to a counselor, talk to a friend, talk to whoever is your confidant and see where you need to go. Because that is. That is one of the things that came out of my research was I had a lot of women who are having mental health health challenges that did not get care. They got hormone support. Sometimes they, if they have serious mental illness issues, they got psychiatrists. So they got the medical health that they needed. But if they were struggling with depression, they, they didn't want to talk about it. Some people didn't even go to their doctor and their doctors didn't know where to refer them. So we had to use again our agency and go, like contact of people go. And that's hard to do when you are in depression, but really important to realize when you're starting to go down that spiral or up into anxiety and reach out to people and maybe others can support you because it's not. I feel like it's a huge gap. [00:46:22] Speaker B: And I love what you said earlier about listening to you and you know, when something's not right. Because I think there's also a societal impression of what depression looks like, which is not necessarily what everybody experiences. Right. Depression. We tend to think of the person that can't get out of bed. And yes, that's certainly part of what some people experience. But depression can look like a ton of different things too. And people may be uncomfortable with the idea of the label of depression, but if you know that you are experiencing things differently for you and that maybe that's not your best self and that's having an effect on you, then I think that's the time to say whatever you want to call it, whatever label you are or are not comfortable with. Recognizing when something is different for you and doing something about it, I think is really important. And I would tag on to that for work. Right. So I ended up in a conversation this week. I saw something actually posted on social media, which I found really powerful. And forgive me, I can't remember who posted it, but she wrote. She wrote a piece that was actually about family violence and a woman who was kind of handling family violence. But what it triggered for me was a thought about how much we know notice at work, but don't notice. And what I mean by that are the little shifts and changes that you see in people. The odd bit of behavior, the facial expression someone pulls that you think, oh, that was weird. You come in and say hello in the morning, and they don't give you the same energy level back, but you go. You walk away going, oh, they don't seem like themselves this morning. But we don't stop and ask the question, and we don't stop and say, now how are you really? Because we'll all say, how are you doing? Oh, yeah. And the answer you're supposed to give is, yeah, good, or, you know, not bad by, that's all good in Newfoundland. Yeah, it's all right, Mari. It's all good. But is it really right? And if what you're seeing from someone are some little things that make you go, hang on a second. That, for me, is time to ask the question. No matter what might be going on behind, it could be perimenopause. It could be depression and anxiety. It could be just having a bad day. And somebody cut me off coming into work this morning. But we've got to a place where people are running so fast that we have stopped asking the question. And I think when we stop asking the how are you Question, then we lose humanity, whether that's at work or at home or in our families on our community circle. So I like putting those two things together. If you know something's not okay for you, no matter what anybody else says to you, you know it's not okay for you. But if so, if you can also notice what's going on with somebody else, if you can ask those questions and create space for the conversation at work, we could also have better workplaces around this stuff as well. [00:48:49] Speaker A: I love that. I also think that you said, like, not to label depression. People don't really know what it looks like. That's another podcast. [00:48:57] Speaker B: Yes. And so I was better, Right? Yeah. [00:49:00] Speaker A: Because it is important. You're right. It's important for people to actually know, notice like in order to ask the question, you need to notice in the first place that, oh, maybe something's going on. And I love that idea to just ask, just ask people more frequently, how are you? [00:49:13] Speaker B: Really? Yeah, and, and real. And real space for that conversation, I think. And that's, that's the challenge because as a business owner, sometimes my day is literally back to back. But if I notice I need to make time, and if I can't make time right now, in this moment, I need to find a way to make time and ask. Because if you're not okay, I can either do two things with that. I can say, okay, you're not okay, and you're a grown up and you're going to ask. Recognizing that I've been plenty of times in my life where I needed help and I didn't ask, so we're not all going to. And sometimes you just need someone to put their hand out and say, hey, are you doing okay? And do you want to chat? And that half an hour conversation can make all the difference no matter what it is that happens to be going on. [00:49:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. Excellent. [00:49:54] Speaker B: I have so loved talking to you. And you're right. There's like six other podcasts that need to spin off the back as a result of that conversation. But as usual, you're wonderful, calm, supportive, practical and wise self. So thank you very much for coming and bringing your lens to this particular situation. I acknowledge again that you're not a medical doctor, but I have found this conversation really helpful. And I love the framing of menopause as that transition and expansion. And I think I'm going to try and challenge myself, myself to think about referring to it that way and check in on how much I laugh about my brain fog over making it an honest conversation. That's a good check for me. So thank you. [00:50:33] Speaker A: I love that. Thank you for having me, Jess. I really enjoyed it. Thanks. [00:50:38] Speaker B: So that's a wrap for today. Thank you very much for joining in. And if you liked our conversation today, please do like and subscribe. You can find us on Apple, Spotify and YouTube. You can also check out our websites E3CA and Neuroworks CA for more information about what we do in the wonderful world of work. So thanks again for joining in and I look forward to seeing you on another episode.