Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Historically, people would say, leave home life at home. We're human beings. We show up as our whole selves. So if something stressful is going on in my home life, it is really challenging for me to just put on a happy face and come into work and pretend like whatever's happening is not happening. I don't think that's realistic because we're not human beings who can slice ourselves off like that. And so I think it's about how do we create those spaces where people can be authentic and say that and feel like the workplace will support me in that.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Hello, everyone. I am Jess Chapman, and this is Wired to Work, a podcast about how we make work actually work for where we are in today's world. I am very excited today to have the awesome Angela Crockwell here, as I refer to her, who is the executive director of thrive here in St. John's in Newfoundland. And Thrive is an organization that helps or supports people navigating exploitation, criminalization, addiction, homelessness, and complex trauma. Every single day, I feel the conversation around Trauma Informed World is bubbling, but I don't think a lot of people really understand what it means. I think sometimes people get stuck on the language we use around it. And I couldn't think of anyone better to make it sensible, straightforward, and pragmatic than Ang. So, Ange, thank you for coming on and being with us today.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: So tell everybody a little bit about what you do. First of all, tell us about Thrive, kind of what your role is and what Thrive does.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm the executive director here at Thrive, and we provide a variety of programs, services, and interventions for people who experience marginalization. And as you said in the introduction, many of our folks are struggling with housing, homelessness, substance use, mental health, mental illness. We work with people who've experienced human trafficking or sexual exploitation. And really what we're trying to do is create a caring community for people. And I will say there's a couple of threads that kind of run through regardless of what people's story is, trauma is one of them. Like, trauma is such a common thread, regardless of if you're. If your issue is struggling with homelessness or mental health or addictions or criminal involvement, trauma is a very, very common theme for the people we support.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: So we. We use the word quite a lot, and I think it's quite a big word, and quite rightly so. But when we're often thinking about going to work every day and showing up in our 9 to 5 environment, I don't Know that the vast majority of us think overly much about how trauma might be there. So when we talk about trauma, what exactly are we talking about and how might someone kind of make sense of that for their own day to day world?
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So there's a couple of, I guess different buckets that trauma might fall into. So like there could be a single incident that you know, lots of us have experienced if we were involved in like a very traumatic like car accident. Like that would be a traumatic singular type of event that can have long lasting implications for people's wellness. And then there's like complex trauma that can be like a very repeated type of experience that people have that really, you know, like it starts to compound. So if I grew up in a house where there was violence and then I experienced like some kind of abuse or neglect and then I ended up in a relationship that was again violent, like those are less like compounded trauma experiences that have, you know, it's a bit of a different impact on how people see and experience the world versus like that kind of singular event. But we always say, you know, if you think about, there's a massive study, adverse childhood experiences. Most all of us have had adverse childhood experiences. So like trauma is also a very common experience for all of us as human beings.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: Yes. Which is kind of sad and it's interesting. So what, what does trauma informed actually mean? And what does that mean for you in your world and what might it mean for somebody who's just kind of gone to work in an insurance company every day?
[00:04:07] Speaker A: Yeah. So there's, we talk about like there are people who are trauma aware, which means that there's this awareness of you're either working with, supervising or providing services to people who have experiences of trauma. And so you have an awareness that people are bringing that into the workspace in some type of way.
And that's fabulous. Then there's trauma informed and is thinking about how you set up workplaces, policies, procedures, supervision, like layout of the space and thinking about how all of those things should be informed by the fact that you are trying to create a space that is not going to re, traumatize, retrigger and create safety for people who have histories of trauma. And that is, that's the trauma informed that we really try to strive to create a workplace that is truly trauma informed and responsive to people. Because most of the people we support have experienced trauma. But this work can be traumatizing to our employees. And so there's an obligation for us to think about that as well.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Yes. So you kind of have it on two fronts. So you have the people you serve and then the people who do the work. And that makes total sense to me for someone in your type of situation, because you know that vast majority of people who are coming to you for services are likely to be in that place. And what you said earlier is actually most of us have some form of adverse experience, which makes me think, well, then how far do we go with it? So if I'm a regular kind of business owner, and I mean, not even necessarily me doing what I do with people, but let's say I run a hair salon or you know, I'm a dental assistant, am I playing in the trauma aware end of the space? That kind of. Where do we start if we're trying to figure this out for something that doesn't work specifically in the kind of, that you work in.
[00:05:57] Speaker A: So I think trauma informed is the universal thing, regardless of your work, and obviously for social service agencies such as us. But if you're working in the private market or like healthcare spaces, school spaces, I think regardless, as long as you're having interactions with human beings, then being trauma informed is a really positive thing because it is such a broad experience that if we're providing services to clients, like in a hair salon, for example, expect that people are going to show up who have been impacted by trauma. But if you're hiring employees, expect that people are going to show up who've been impacted by trauma. And so how do we create work environments where people feel that there's safety and security for them and that they can do the best, their best work and people can't do that if they're being triggered or feel unsafe. So it is really a win win in terms of thinking of it from an employer perspective. If, if we create really safe, healthy work spaces for our employees, then they tend to do better work, they tend to stay less turnover, like all those things. So I do think trauma informed is a buzzword that lots of people were starting to recognize how trauma does impact people.
And your example was really perfect around like this reaction. And it's like that's the trauma response because it's not equal to what actually was happening. But people bring all of that into
[00:07:37] Speaker B: the world every day.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: The world every day, exactly.
Help people figure those things out. I just think creates a culture of wellness for everybody.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: I think a lot of it for me is the same, the same challenges that folks face generally when they think about people. Right. So I think there is a general understanding in the world that if People feel comfortable and safe, they're going to be a better version of themselves and they're likely going to want to do more for you. And they feel comfortable and happy, which is great. And you get more because they're excited to be at work. But what we quite often see when it comes to things like whether inclusion and equity and diversity, whether it's trauma related, there's this fear of getting it wrong. I think that gets in the way for people or this idea that, like, I don't know anything about that, like, I can't talk to people. I had a conversation with a client group where they've obviously been through, like difficult conversations, training, and their first response to everything that we had as a scenario was, well, maybe there's something happening at home. Right? Like their, their response to everything was, there must be something going on with this person personally. And I can't go there because that's private and I shouldn't have those conversations. And I'm going to refer them to efap. Now, I will say there's nothing wrong with saying that and referring people to EFAP and everything else, but a lot of people, I think, avoid having conversations. Do people know when they come to Thrive? Does everyone know when they come to work at Thrive that that's what they're going to be doing? Like, how do you equip people for that type of conversation and that kind of support?
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Yeah. So when people come to work at Thrive, they know given the population that we're working with and writing the job descriptions which you helped write for us, it says like high exposure to traumatic stories and history. So people have that awareness. But when they're in the middle of, then it's like, oh, I didn't realize it was gonna be this. Yeah, be this or this graphic or this much or this often.
And so it is a bit of an ongoing process to help people process the work, debrief about the work, talk about what is triggering for them. So again, when I think about, like the world of work, I mean, historically, you know, people would say, you'll leave, like, leave home life at home. We're human beings. Like, I think that like, kind of that thinking is past due. Like we show up as our whole selves. So if something is. Something really, you know, stressful is going on in my home life, it is really challenging for me to just put on a happy face and come into work and pretend like whatever's happening is not happening. I don't think that's realistic because we're not Human beings who can slice ourselves off like that.
I do think as employers, we don't need people to tell us the details.
What we do want is for staff to show up and say, like, I may not be at my best today. Like, I'm struggling, I feel very stressed, I feel overwhelmed, whatever. And again, I might need some extra support or this may not be the best day for me to do A, B or C, like to feel safety and being able to communicate that and have some degree of, of accommodation for when people are having a really, really hard day. Because people will show up and have a really, really hard day. And so I think it's about how do we create those spaces where people can be authentic and say that and feel like the workplace will support me in that.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not going to lose my job or have a bad performance review or get bad feedback from my boss. If I come in and say, like, I'm not, I'm not knocking out the bottle today. I'm not firing on alternatives today. I need to do some quieter work and manage that accordingly. Which is the whole point really of accommodation. Right?
[00:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's about kindness and compassion and treating everybody with dignity and respect. And I will say, like, sometimes people might think if we're being like extremely accommodating or like really thinking about how do we support employees or clients or whatever who have come, like, who have trauma, that we're lowering the expectation around performance. And I would say that is not the case. Like, I feel like Thrive has created an unbelievably special environment here where we are very trauma informed, where we think about the safety and accommodation for the people who do the, like their employees, but also the people who come through. I also have a very high expectation that you are going to do excellent work. We, as an employer, we're going to do everything within reason to create a space where you can do excellent work. And then you have each employee has a responsibility to do that work. And are there days or weeks when again, something's happening that we're not all on our game? That's like, of course we are. But if somebody is like, I really am struggling and I'm going to be operating at 30%, that's the best I can ever give you. You're going to have to go to figure out and do work on your own, you know, to kind of make sure like you can actually perform. So I don't think there it is not an either or, is a both. And you can have very high expectations that employees will perform. And employees should also have high expectation that when they're doing giving their best, their employer is thinking about their safety, their wellness, and they're working for an employer organization that really cares and takes care of them.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: The genuine care pair. I mean, and that makes a whole lot of sense, I think. And I think for most people.
I say most because I'm not sure it's true that it's everyone, but I think most of us would recognize the desire to support people and that we all have times that we're in and out. I think the challenge sometimes comes for folks when that person is not aware. Right. So I think when, when somebody can come and have a conversation with you and say, I'm not having a great day. And then that's a lot easier because you can sit down, have a conversation with them and say, okay, so what, you know, you don't have to tell me all what's happening, but what would make a difference to you, and we'll talk, you know, sensibly about how we can best help you. I think the challenge for most leaders is when either the person isn't aware of how they're showing up and that something is perhaps off for them in the way that they're doing it, or their expectations of the degree of support far outstrip what somebody can sensibly deliver for them. And then I think it becomes a little bit trickier. So maybe we can tackle those two separately. So what do we do then? Ang, like, what does. Like how do we. Because we aren't. Most leaders are not counselors, they're not therapists, they're not equipped for that type of situation. So how do we best equip ourselves for the likelihood that that can and will happen, but also what do we do if it does?
[00:14:29] Speaker A: Yeah, so one of the things around creating like trauma informed workspaces is around transparency and accountability. And I think it's really important for employees to have a really good understanding around what is expected, what the feedback process looks like, what is the employer's responsibility, but also what is their responsibility.
And so I think when you see people having big reactions and are not self aware, I would have very honest and frank conversations. And one of the feedback pieces that we get often here at Thrive is employees really appreciate the fact that we won't let anything just like fester if there's an issue. And again, I remember you saying this like years ago, if something is turning over in your mind, like repeatedly, or if you're thinking about something for more than 15 minutes, deal with it. And so staff understand that if there's concerns, if something program supervisor identifies something, it is going to be handled. It's going to be handled very kindly, very respectfully. But it's going to be like it's going to be, there's going to be a conversation. If people do not under, like don't have that self awareness and the issue is repeatedly being brought up in the work is impacting other people, then we have to deal with that like it is important.
Like I said, it's not an either or. We can create spaces where we can provide like accommodation and safety and all of that, but we are all also individually responsible for participating and creating that safe work environment. So if I may toxic person in a workplace, then that absolutely needs to be addressed. And if employers find ways to create spaces where people can work on that and do better 100%.
But people have to do their own work. We're not counseling people either. That is not the role of an employer. And when people need that outside professional help, that is their responsibility to go get that so that they can come to work and do the work that is expected of them. Because there's lots of people counting on people to be able to do good work.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Yes, I love.
And I do, I think so you. I love that you remember 15 minute rule. Because I talk about that a lot. Folks, we have a rule in E3 world and Jess's world we've had for a long time, which is if you find yourself stewing on something that's gone on for more than 15 minutes, you have two options. You can let it go or you can have a conversation with the person about it. But if you let it go, that means you totally let it go. Not that you wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it, not that you talk to somebody else about it, about that person or what happened behind the other person's back. Like, it's literally I'm deciding this doesn't matter and I'm fully letting it go. And if you can't, then you need to go have a conversation with the person about it. And it's a very simple rule, but actually one a couple of our clients adopted as grammars in their organization because they had a lot of conflict that no one was talking about and people were mad at each other and not saying they were mad at each other. And then things fester. And we know from a brain perspective what you focus on, you get more of. So if things are festering, they actually get bigger, right? But that, that pragmatism, again, there is angel pragmatism around.
It's not our responsibility as employees to counsel people. It's our responsibility to help them understand where they are at and whether what they're doing is appropriate for the workplace that we have designed or not. And to discuss with them how we best support them in finding the help they need to move forwards. But it is not our responsibility to provide that help necessarily.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes, I mean, obviously the world we're working in, where there is high exposure to trauma, there's also high exposure to, you know, watching people suffer and like loss and grief and all of that. And so for some people, if they come with a lot of trauma and this is like just trigger and trigger and triggering it is also helping people realize this may not be for you. So I think there's a responsibility as well, or I feel a responsibility as an employer is to help people also figure out this is not the best place for you. You are not going to do your best work in this environment. And that's not a personal failing. There's. There's a space and place for everybody. Like I would do really, in like highly structured environments with policy, you know, that would not. I wouldn't work well in that. And so, like, that's not a personal failing on mine, but it's also trying to help people find that match. So if people are showing up the work and really struggling consistently, then it's also like, can we have a conversation around is this the right place or work or whatever for you? Because we spend so much of our time obviously at work, we want people to find value in that and fulfilled in that.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Thus important and do the work and be connected to the work, but not to the detriment of themselves. That ability to say, I need boundaries of my own now, actually, that's an interesting thing. So I've had lots of conversations in the last probably six weeks, not sure why in the last six weeks, but in last six weeks, round boundaries and folks that struggle, either because they're extremely kind people and they don't know when to stop or because they just don't know where the line should be. Like, they're either in new leadership roles and they're like, I don't know where the line is between friend and leader and all those types of things. Then I would imagine, and from my experience working with thrive, boundaries in your world are crucial. They are not nice to have. It is not something you can figure out as you go. So how do you. What advice do you have for folks who might struggle with setting boundaries? Are there things that you have learned that other people could apply?
[00:20:19] Speaker A: Yeah, we have so many conversations around boundaries and ethics and I think again, so critical in terms of trauma informed practice. People, again, people need to know where those boundaries are. It is what keeps people safe. And for people who have histories of trauma, one of the things that's has often happened to them is people have crossed other people's personal boundaries. And so it is actually ethical to have very strong and clear boundaries. And sometimes people feel like, again, these are my friends or like co workers,
[00:20:58] Speaker B: I'm responsible for you because you work for me. It's all those things.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: All of those things. So I feel like being very clear around boundaries is part of that trauma informed. And I understand as an executive director there is a power that like I have in this role that other people in this organization do not have. And so thinking about the right use of power, I feel, you know, like on lots of days I am doing the same thing as staff. Like I will bring out the recycling to the curb. I will like, you know, I don't operate as a power position in the organization, but I recognize the power that I have. And it's really important for me to have very clear boundaries and not. I'm not your friend.
You know, often we'll say we will be friendly, but we are not friends. Friends are somebody you can call at 12 o' clock on a Friday night and say, I'm in trouble, can you come help? And you can't call me. And coworkers shouldn't be doing that. So I do think it's about thinking about this is a work situation and we can care about people. And often people do find their friends at work. But when you're at work, there is a coworker, there is a client, there is an employer, employer employee boundary. And to keep everybody safe and healthy, you actually need to operate within those parameters.
Because once it all starts to get blurred, it becomes confusing for people.
Again, for people with strong histories of trauma, it can actually feel really unsafe because why is my boss being my friend? Like that doesn't. For people who've had their boundaries crossed that actually often may not sit well, like this is not what a typical relationship would be.
So I think it's important to think about strong boundaries as actually strong ethical work behavior.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: I think that that's a, that's also a really important lens because I also think sometimes people, including myself, don't always pause to think about what is it I'm about to do here and what is the long term implication of what I'm about to do? And I say that from all manner of HR things actually. Whether it's like Bobby's asked for a pay increase and I say yes cause I really like Bobby. Or whether it's somebody asking me to come bail them out. Right. Like, like there's a, there's a. I'm a human being. You're a human being, I want to help you. But actually it could be really damaging for that person if you then have to take that help away. Right. If they're going to exceed what you are capable of doing for them because they aren't your friend and they aren't your family member. And so you've helped them once, but now they have a misconception you're going to help them every time and then you then have to retract that help. You might actually be doing more damage there than you intended to in the first place. So I don't know that necessarily. Ponder what happens from here if I do a. Right, I'm just, I'm just going to be helpful, not what happens about that. So I think that's a really, really useful frame for people and probably not one most people would think about. What happens from your perspective if the expectation of support is out of whack.
So we have. I have come across examples throughout my career where an individual was obviously going through challenges, was forthright about the challenges, which is really helpful. But then their expectation of the level of the accommodation that the organization or leader could provide was really not realistic for the circumstances and was often tied to things like, well, you're the business owner and so you've clearly got lots of money and you can afford to do X as opposed to recognising the financial reality of things. So any advice for how you support somebody that isn't delivering the way they need to but feels like you should be giving them more rather than finding that balance.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I think again that open and honest communication.
I know obviously I talked to lots of lawyers over the years that like what is reasonable accommodation? And a lawyer would help you kind of figure and haggle that out. But again, I think it's about as an employer, employees having an understanding that again, I will speak from the staff at Thrive. I want them to feel like this organization has their back. We will try to do everything within our capacity and our resources to make sure people feel supported, that they are actually being paid and have access to the best benefits. That we can afford. So hopefully like that idea gets removed off the table. People understand we are taking care of people to our maximum capacity within the resources that we have. And then there's a very clear job description. And in return for that, here is what we expect of you.
And so when people fall below that and need a level of accommodation that is not reasonable, then you're stepping outside of that, like kind of two way. And so, you know, for us, we exist to provide services to vulnerable people. And so if we have an employee who is unable to do that, well, that's an issue. And so they have a couple of options.
Like, I might need to take some time off and go figure that out. For us, that would be a reasonable accommodation. Unless it's the fifth time that they've asked to take some time off to go figure that out. But if people are like, I have a plan how to make this right so I can actually do what's expected of me, excellent. But I think it's having that clear expectation and being able to say, like, here's what reasonable is. And so again, we live in the world of social services. But if it is sales and like, I am really struggling and so I actually don't want to be able to have communications with people really hard to do a sales job or like, that's not reasonable. So then is saying to the person, what do you need to do?
Because it is their life, it is their challenge. And while we create an environment, people are ultimately have to do the work. Like, you know, because we support vulnerable people. I always say the staff, when they start, like, I get very concerned with people who are like, I'm going to save people or I'm going to fix people or I'm going to change people. We're like, no, you're not. You're going to be helpful. You're going to create a space where hopefully people can have enough safety to think about what they need next. And we can walk alongside people, but we can't fix or change people. And the same as from an employer's perspective, like when we see somebody who is really struggling, can we create a safe environment? Can we have kind conversations? 100%. Can you make the person well or better or what? No, you cannot. I think you can have very clear expectations. And one of the things that I think we've done well is we're very clear on what our values are. So when people start doing stuff like, we can say, how does that align with this is our values? And you signed onto an organization that lives again, that was going to be and one like one of the very basic ones. It always surprises me when I hear adults talking about other workplaces. I say to every new staff, I have zero talents for workplace gossip. It is a cancer in an organization. And so if you have a concern or a complaint 100% legit, address it or as you said, let it go. But if you're just like talking and gossiping about other people for the sake of that's a non starter. That will not be acceptable in this organization because that is cancerous and it festers and it creates unsafety for everybody.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And so much of what you're talking about comes back to that underlying premise of care and safety. Right. Like if I'm going to have that difficult conversation with someone no matter what the conversation is. And we, we know this is true in the brain world. Right. So like relatedness and belonging are fundamental human needs. The more connected I feel to you, the more I feel like I belong in a place, the easier it is for you to hold a mirror up to me to whatever I need feedback on. And I'm less likely to have a stronger emotional reaction or the emotional reaction I have will be, will be less high. And I think it's that piece about where your priority lies in the conversation.
And for leaders in organizations, I think sometimes they get stuck between the human piece of wanting to give the time to the people and have the conversations and maybe lacking some of the skill and then feeling the pressure of the organization that they've got to turn the wheel and make the money and it's gotta be productive and everything's gonna be good and they kind of get caught in that in between.
And yet realistically going right back to what you said at the beginning, which I completely love and agree with, the more safe people feel, the more careful they feel, the more they will be connected, the better it is for everybody. And if you're a money person, the better your results are at the end of the day as well.
[00:30:17] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think in terms of this current climate that we're all operating in, regardless of what type of industry you are. Again, if you're in some type of front facing where you have clients, people, people are highly stressed. And so we've seen people talk about increases in workplace violence, like in healthcare settings, in school settings. I would imagine if you're in customer service, like the number of people who are coming in who are unbelievably stressed and maybe lashing out at service, like, like it's Becoming more and more common. So I do think like this. This is timely for people to think about in terms of how do they support employees?
Because we're. Everybody is seemingly more and more subjected to things that can be very distressing to them. And it's important for people to think about that and not make it worse.
[00:31:18] Speaker B: From your perspective, are there things that perhaps you do at thrive or things you've seen other people do that helps continue to build people skills in this space, continue the awareness journey, make sure it's not something we just do, like, twice a year when we do our compliance training. How do we actually get better at this?
[00:31:35] Speaker A: I think helping people think about. About what might have been behind that experience. So, you know, if somebody comes in here and gets very elevated and lashes out or says something that might be hurtful or harmful, helping people think about, well, like, that might have been a trauma response. Like, what was that? The same as if in a call center, like, somebody lashes out and is unkind to somebody.
I think sometimes it is helpful for people as opposed to just understanding. I was on a phone call and somebody said something that was really hurtful or harmful or they started screaming at me. It's not about you. Like, it really probably. They might have been on hold for, you know, 25 minutes and had a screaming youngster at their foot.
And like, we don't know what's going on for other people. And I'm not suggesting that we excuse bad behavior, but it's helpful for people if they can think about a. It's not personal. Like, they actually weren't lashing out at you necessarily unless you were, you know, doing something. But 90% of the time, it's not personal. It is. You might have been the last straw for people. And I think sometimes that's helpful for people and to think about empathy for the person who is actually being unkind to them and think they probably are having a rough day, a really bad day. Like, sometimes I see people in traffic and I think when they lose it, I'm thinking myself, you are hanging by a thread. If the fact that, like, somebody cut you off and you, like, you are really having a bad day, like, you're just hanging in there, right? So trying to help people frame that. Because as we have a responsibility to do customer care or customer service, it is not realistic for us to then be like, all of our customers or all of our clients have to be lovely. Lovely and engaging and kind. Like, that's like, no, that's not gonna happen. It's not gonna Happen, like, it would be wonderful. It's not gonna happen. So when that doesn't happen, validate that. That was. That was tough. But that is the work also. We, again, we say, like, sometimes people will say, this work is unbelievably stressful and it's a lot. And it's chaotic and brute. Yep, it is.
Yeah. And.
[00:33:58] Speaker B: And it's okay.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: Support you.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: You to also choose to opt out and go else do something else. Yeah. But this is. Yeah, this is what you signed up for.
[00:34:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:06] Speaker B: No, I think that. I think that's great. I've been chewing for a while. I need to get a T shirt that says it's not about you. Because the. In that internalization. And it took me. It took me a while. Like, I'm older now, but I would say Jess in her 20s, would have absolutely assumed negative intent. Right. Now, some of that might be trauma related. Some of that might not have been me in my brain, but. And. And then you make it something. Right. So somebody being mean mean something about you. They don't like you. They're an Irish person. It becomes much bigger than it is when, to your point, very likely you're just the last straw in the situation. Like, often when I have to have conversations with people, I was talking to somebody about this, and they're like, well, how when someone's like, hard to you or negative to you, do you not bite back? Right. Because then it's likely to make it worse. And I said I should do a visualization thing. If I know I'm going into an environment where I may be having a situation with somebody who's likely to be elevated or likely to be very unhappy, and I am the bearer of the news, and therefore I am the face in front of them, you can fully expect that. Therefore I am the representative of the thing that's hurting them. I imagine zipping myself into an imaginary hazmat suit.
Then, like, the emotions that I'm getting are just bouncing off the suit. And then I don't need to react to those because it's not about me. I am here as the face of something that is a threat to them, and they're having a threat response to that. And my job is to try and help them with that as best as they can manage in that moment. But to your point, they're also an adult, and I don't have to go beyond what is a sensible, reasonable level of support for that person in that particular moment.
[00:35:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And if there are ways in those really hard to like if you're dismissing somebody or if you're. There's ways that you give people some semblance of choice or control. Like, I'll try to find it. Like, how would you like stuff communicated? How would you like to leave the building? How would you. Like. Like those are small things and probably in those moments they like, again, they want to scream at. At you. But like, again, whatever you do, trying to do it in a way that is giving people as much dignity and respect as you possibly can. Because all of us, most of us are doing the best that we can. And sometimes it may not be enough for a work situation, and that's okay. But I still think if we can find those ways to do that, that's really the trauma informed. It doesn't mean that we have to accommodate every issue or every need. But at the end of the day, we have understood that people bring all kinds of stuff to the table. We've thought about it, we've designed for it, and we've created the best work environment we can. And then as the employees, the beginning able to work within those parameters.
[00:36:46] Speaker B: Yes. And we hold the mirror up with care and say we value. And I. And I think that's also a nugget I would probably add in around remembering to distinguish between people and their behavior. Right. So we sometimes actually had a really great conversation with someone who used the phrase I would probably slightly form. But he said, there's no bad people, there's only bad situations. But that distinction between everybody is doing the best they can. This person may not be doing anything I like right now and be doing things that are wholly unhelpful, aggressive, negative, whatever, but that does not mean that that is them every second of the day.
And we tend to assume that people are their worst opinion, their worst behavior, when in fact that is not at all the case. And you largely have more in common with people than you think you do if you spend some time with them. And if we can start to think about, like, if you think about it the other way, the people you love don't always behave the way you want. Right. So. But we don't stop loving them. So just because somebody shows up and gives you the behavior you don't like, doesn't mean you don't have to like them forever. There's not the same thing. I'm gonna pull them apart. Yeah.
[00:37:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And I will often talk about just curiosity, like, as opposed to being judgmental. If we can be curious as human beings, like, if we see something and you're like, Hmm. I wonder what. I wonder where that came from. What's that about? Or again, sometimes when you hear people say, like, truly awful things, as if we, you know, in this world we're living in right now, we can hear almost on an hourly basis, I'm always curious, like, huh, what.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: How did you get there?
[00:38:16] Speaker A: Yeah, like, what. What's happening that you got there? You probably didn't land there by accident. No. Right. It doesn't mean you have to accept. But no.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: And it. But it also doesn't mean people will necessarily stay there either. Right. So we're a function of our experiences.
We're a function of the perceptions that we are around a lot of the time. What we grew up with, what the people we surround ourselves with think.
So, you know, the wonderful thing about people neuroplasticity is real. We can change how we think, how we move, what we do. You have no idea if how you showed up in that one conversation with that person who's having a terrible day, if the kindness that you showed them or the boundary that you set for them, or the way that you approach them, recognizing that it's not about you, actually shifted something in their thinking and they walked away from that conversation and you helped them make a fundamental change. You don't know. You'll never know. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%.
[00:39:12] Speaker B: My last question would be, if you had a room full of business owners, CEOs, HR people, what is one shift in mindset around trauma you would want them to make. That would make everything better, easier?
[00:39:26] Speaker A: I would again look at, like, your policy and practice. And are you. Have you thought about how you create emotionally safe workplaces for people? Have you thought about how you have, like, communication happens in your organization, like power dynamics and all of those things? And how do you think about that in terms of being trauma informed? And the other thing I would say to like, CEOs or business leaders is how do you hold yourself accountable and transparent to your employees? Because I think that also gives people a sense of connection to their employer and a sense of expectations. So if there is an expectation for all your employees around meeting certain standards, how do you make sure that they understand that you're also meeting those. Those standards? And how do you listen to their voices in. In a real authentic way? And I think that's really important as well. And obviously do training, like, there's some fabulous, fabulous training around trauma, because I think it's gonna be an ongoing, ever growing issue in this world that we're all living in right now.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't know if it's that actually there is more trauma. I think we just are in a place where people are more aware. But that's a good thing because then we have the opportunity to create the spaces where we can help people with the trauma they're facing, as opposed to people feeling like they have a struggle on their own or maybe never finding the way to get past whatever it is that they have to have to handle. I sometimes hear folks who go, well, I've never really gone through anything, so I don't really understand. Or I also get the flip side, which is, well, I've been through trauma too, and I've managed to do X, Y, and Z. And so everybody else should also be able to get. Get over it or do whatever they're doing. And I kind of think about both of those situations the same way you described, which is, how did you get there? Like, you don't have to have gone through trauma to understand somebody else's. So how do I put that judgment aside and help them from a place of kindness? Because it's easy to get stuck on. Well, I've managed to, but that doesn't mean anything.
[00:41:42] Speaker A: No. I think about somebody said to me a couple years ago, two siblings grew up in a house where there was a lot of violence and a lot of substance use. And one sibling really struggled with their own substance use and housing, homelessness. And the other one excelled, like, master's degree. And both of them would say, I'm in this place because of where I came from, even though they ended up like, so we're all different. Yeah. Like, some people will then be like, I will never be in that situation and will, like, super perform. And some people are so impacted that they will repeat it again.
We're all unique human beings.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Yes. And accepting the uniqueness of people means that you cannot compare yourself. I did a session for Enlock at the conference a week or so ago. We were talking about resilience. And I said, no one on the world has your brain, so comparing yourself to other people makes no sense. Just because something stresses someone else or doesn't stress you or stresses you and doesn't stress someone else is frankly irrelevant because you are you, and everybody does what you do. So the question is, what do you need to do for you? And then wouldn't it be nice if we all could work on being more trauma aware and doing more of what we do with care? And always an absolute pleasure to have a conversation with you. I always walk away feeling energized. And I just, I love how practical and pragmatic you are about so many things that many people stress over or worry about. So thank you so much for coming on, sharing your experience, your wisdom, and just the joy of you with everybody. And I hope folks took a lot of nuggets out of this session. So thank you.
[00:43:13] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me in my first podcast.
[00:43:16] Speaker B: So that's a wrap for today. Thank you very much for joining in. And if you liked our conversation today, please do like and subscribe. You can find us on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube. You can also check out our websites E3CA and Neuroworks CA for more information about what we do in the wonderful world of work. So thanks again for joining in, and I look forward to seeing you on another episode.
