Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: When we put people into MRI machines and we scan them, you can actually see the differences in the brain between a person who meditates regularly and a person who doesn't. In the prefrontal cortex, which is all the stuff to do with your executive functioning, your attention, your decision making, your hippocampus, which is to do with memory, your anterior cingulate cortex, which is your emotional regulation, self control part of the brain, and your insular, which is to do with how you feel, your body, which makes a whole lot of sense to me when you think about sitting down and breathing and holding things together. Those things for me are work related concepts. So yes, I totally agree. I want people to feel good within the themselves. But we're also talking about a tool that improves memory, concentration, emotional regulation, stress management. Like why are we not having more conversations about this?
So thank you both for joining me today to have this very important conversation. I've wanted to talk about this for quite a while and both of you have had. I have had conversations with in various ways over the years around the wonderful world of meditation and work. So I'm super glad you're both here because you're both super experienced in this space and you might be able to share some of tips that also get me to be more consistent in my practice, which would be pretty good as we go along. But I want to start right back at the beginning because I had, as I will say in the intro to this, I had a conversation with the CEO who we're doing some coaching work with, who is, as many people are today, handling a lot, dealing with stress and burnout and challenges and juggling a lot of balls. And so we were working through all of that in the coaching practice and talking about kind of tools for handling all of that. And when I brought up the topic of medit, her response was, I don't know about that, Jess. Isn't that a bit woo woo? And I was like, ah, okay, now I get that fairly often. And I was like, now is now is the time. So we obviously had that conversation. That is the conversation I want to have today with two people who are very obviously experienced in this space and know more about this than I do from a meditation perspective. So. But I want to go right back to the beginning because I'm guessing that there are people listening to this who are in the woo Woo camp who are sitting here thinking, why are we talking about meditation? We're talking about workplaces, Jess. Why are we talking about meditation? Meditation is the thing that people do sitting on cushions, making funny noises. That's not like. That's not. Why are we talking about it? So, Tina, can you, from your perspective, just. Let's define what are we talking about when we talk about meditation in plain and simple language?
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
So meditation is simply a tool that we use to.
So there's many different styles of meditation.
And so I'm going to speak from my perspective. I teach vipassana, yoga, nidra chanting, breath work, and meditation. All those are meditations for different reasons, used for different reasons. But meditation is used simply, I guess, generally to become aware of what's going on in our inner space and to be able to observe it, possibly calm it down.
And I will say, you cannot stop. Stop it. It is really just about awareness. We can also build attention and focus, concentration with meditation.
We can also cultivate compassion and love for ourselves, for others, for the world, if you want to go that route.
So it really is just a tool to build mindfulness and concentration and insight.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: Awesome. Very straightforward. And ros. So you similarly teach versions of meditation.
What do you think? What are the common misconceptions that people have when they come to you and you're going to teach this stuff? What do you see that. No, no, no, wait.
[00:03:43] Speaker C: Oh, so many misconceptions about meditation.
I mean, I think, you know, I'm not sure. I mean, people that come to my classes in the barn where I teach, you know, throughout the spring, summer, fall, they come in usually having not meditated before, and they need a group setting to actually start to explore it.
You know, I. I think that the misconceptions usually around meditation are, you know, that they can't do it. Number one, I think people, you know, that's. That's the first thing I hear from everybody is, oh, I can't meditate. I've tried and I can't do it. And there's also a misconception that if your mind is busy while you're sitting or trying to meditate, that you're doing it wr.
That you're not doing it right, and that, you know, you're supposed to be sitting in complete silence with a clear head the entire time, which also is, you know, a huge misconception because, you know, the practice of meditation is like. I like to say it's like strength training. You know, you're really training your mind to come back to a place of calm. You're not expecting it to be calm.
So, yeah, I would say those are probably the top two misconceptions.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that because I think that I hear that a lot in terms of doing it right. Like this is the Western philosophy. If I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it properly, which is lovely intention. But what is right when it comes to meditation? Like again, if it's a practice that suggests just like anything else you practice, sometimes you show up and do it super well. Sometimes you show up and it doesn't work the way you intended. But you don't stay. I can't do it right. I don't stop practicing because it didn't work for me once. And I think that's a kind of really important, important place to stay. And I love the reframe around the types because I do think when people, a lot of people think about meditation, they assume I have to sit cross legged somewhere and chant om or something of that equation for it to work. Right. And so it's not for them. And Tina will know this because Tina came in and did some meditation sessions with my team. We had like Wellness Mondays, Meditation Mondays. And my husband who also works in the business was like, yeah, no, meditation is not for me. I don't do that chanting thing.
I'm not going to force him. So that's perfectly fine. That's not the point. But what's interesting is he will lie down of an evening with me before we go to bed and he will do body relaxation and work through letting go of tension in every part of his body. But that's not meditation, Jess.
So he doesn't understand. Yes, it is. That's totally a form of meditation. You are pausing where you are and you are reflecting on what you're doing. But he had this preconception in his head that he's got to sit and like do the whole hand thing and chant and everything else. And I think people do have that. So we're not talking about that. Right. We're talking about space, time, movement, practices that allow you to pause where you are and reflect a Tina's point on what's going on with you and maybe calm what's going on, but at least not allow it to control what we're doing in that particular moment.
[00:06:41] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: I'll add that you can actually meditate while you're washing the dishes, while you're going for a run, while you're exercising. Like meditation can be done in conjunction with many different activities. It's a different kind of meditation.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: But yeah, well, yes, because effectively yoga is a form of meditation.
[00:06:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: And so is Tai Chi and all those other things.
So as Two people who teach this and obviously practice it yourselves.
What. Why, why do you. Why do you want to tell the world, hey, this is a thing you should think about doing. What are the benefits you see? What, like, what are the changes you've seen from other people? So I'll say Roz first, and then we'll go to you.
[00:07:18] Speaker C: I mean, you know, for me, meditation, I. I started out at an actual Buddhist center. So, you know, prior to a yoga teacher, I was going to Buddhist classes. And that's really where I had my first experience with meditation. And, you know, just kind of calming my mind, you know, feeling that sense of deep peace that comes from just sitting for five, ten minutes.
And so that's something I really wanted to share with other people, was that deep sense of calm and peace that you can develop through a meditation practice, which was really why I got into teaching it. I kind of. I stumbled.
I started off with meditation, and then I ended up teaching yoga. I ended up taking my yoga teacher training because I wanted to learn how to deepen my meditation practice through the practice of yoga.
Because something a lot of people don't know is that yoga, in its inception was actually meant to prepare the body for meditation.
So it was meant to actually, like, stretch you out, get you comfortable so that you can sit for extended periods of time. Right. Because yoga is actually a spiritual practice. So, you know, I came to yoga out of my meditation practice, which I think is kind of backwards for most people, but that's how I ended up there.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:35] Speaker C: And then wanted to just, you know, share that teaching so that other people could learn how to calm and quiet the mind and just develop their own sense of inner peace. Really?
Did I answer your question?
[00:08:45] Speaker A: Yes, I did. Okay.
[00:08:47] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:08:49] Speaker A: And Tina, like, what. What impacts do you see for people when they start the practice of meditation?
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah, So I actually start my classes saying, I teach this because I need this.
And I. Like, Roz, I got into it from an early age of just being interested in it and then doing my yoga teacher training and all the, you know, a very similar path.
So I did do it for spiritual reasons. But as I've gotten older, my brain does wild and crazy and weird things, and the meditation practice is so helpful. So as I've taught people and they've shared with me their feedback, some of the things that they've told me is I just feel more at ease, I'm more peaceful. I don't react so quickly. I mean, we can read all this in the research, but this is from people that are Actually trying it on often for the first time. It's like they have this immediate. I've been practicing for a couple of weeks and my husband or partner or wife noticed that I wasn't as snappy, right? Little things like that. And it's like, wow. Now I think you can see a really quick change when you first start practicing. And then it might sort of not feel like you're changing because it takes a long time. It's a practice, right? And it's something that needs repetition, repetition, repetition. Just like I think Roz mentioned building, you know, muscles in the gym. You know, if you go, you build bigger muscles and then, you know, if you stop going, those muscles will also shrink.
So, you know, you can change your body shape, you can change your mental state.
Oftentimes people will come to a class occasionally and they feel great after the class. But then there's, you know, they go back to however they were beforehand. Same with yoga. And that is called state. Different than state and nervous system. It's called state mindfulness. And what happens is we feel really good. Oh my God, this is great. And then we never do it again. And we're like, well, that didn't work right. Because it does change our state temporarily.
It's when we practice and it becomes a part of our lives, we kind of embody it, that it becomes something called trait mindfulness. And then people start to see how this practice of meditation really does change how they think. The narratives in their mind, their emotions, their sense of purpose, you know, the things that you hear in all the research. And people are like, that doesn't really work.
It's because it needs to be a continual, frequent practice for that to happen. And takes time.
But you know, I hear just for, you know, short term benefits, I've had clients in the workplace say things like, I didn't respond to the email right away. I wrote the email and then I waited.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right.
[00:11:48] Speaker B: That's a common one.
Or I listened to that person ramble on and I didn't talk back, I just listened or I was triggered and I knew I was.
You might have even talked back, but you knew you were triggered and then you went, oh, yeah, sorry, I'm totally activated here. You know, so little, little places that people start to notice because it's the practice of paying attention to what's going on and that becomes what you do then all the time.
And also concentration and focus.
So I don't know about you, but as I've gotten older, my concentration of focus has declined, especially In Menopause, which was our last podcast episode.
And so mindfulness practice or. And other types of meditation too really help with concentration and focus. And I think in the workplace that is huge.
We're on autopilot, we're distracted, we live in a stressful world and being able to focus on what's in front of us can be difficult.
So, yeah, so there's some of the. There's so many benefits, but there's a few.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: Well, I love that. That for me is you are describing neuroplasticity in action, right? So the two different versions of you do something the first time and you are going to feel the benefits of simply slowing down, doing deep breathing, resetting your vagus nerve, all the things that are going to happen if you lie down or sit down and. And pause. But the practice of actually doing it over and over again will cement the synaptic connections that you're making to make it the habit you're talking about. And actually some of the researchers and I wanted to bring this forward because I think when we're talking about the workplace, the pieces of this that are, I want people to feel better and have that sense of inner peace, which are all very valid, get kind of pushed to one side because those are individual, personal things. If you want to do that for you, that's fine. But the bits that Tina's talking about too, which are around memory and attention and emotional regulation, are super critical for the workplace. And meditation is a really valuable tool in enhancing those things. And when we put people into MRI machines and we scan them, you can actually see the differences in the brain between a person who meditates regularly and a person who doesn't. In the prefrontal cortex, which is all the stuff to do with your executive functioning, your attention, your attention, your decision making, your hippocampus, which is to do with memory, your anterior cingulate cortex, which is your emotional regulation, self control part of the brain, and your insular, which is to do with how you feel your body, which makes a whole lot of sense to me when you think about sitting down and breathing and holding, you know, holding things together. And so those things for me are work related concepts. So yes, I totally agree. I want people to feel good within themselves. But we're also talking about a tool that improves memory, concentration, emotional regulation and stress management. Like why are we not having more conversations about this as a workplace tool? What is it that still is stopping people? And I'm probably a really good example. Well, I'll talk about that because I'm. I dip in and dip out of things.
But if that's still not soldier. There's a couple of other things that I found in the research. So one, it'll actually slow down our aging process in living a little bit longer.
One, it's supposed to, the research suggests it, it reduces the declining gray matter in the brain, which as we get older, our gray matter declines. Right. So what you're talking about, Tina, in terms of brain fog, would be tied to that. But also we have telomeres.
[00:15:18] Speaker C: Telomeres.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: I don't know if you. Do you know what telomere is?
Kind of. So when your cells replicate, right? So your cells need to replicate, you lose.
[00:15:26] Speaker C: Oh, yes, the ends.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: Yeah, the ends on the shoelace is what comes off when your cell replicates. And the shorter your cell gets, then. Then eventually they're too short. You can't replicate anymore. And that's affected by cortisol and inflammation. So if you have more cortisol, which comes from stress and more inflammation, then it'll shorten your telomeres faster. People who meditate don't have as much of that. So your telomeres don't short.
So theoretically you're going to live longer. Right.
I'm like, who did, why did no one tell me that When I was in my twenties, I would have been meditating since I was four.
But I think, but I raise that seriously, because I do hear a lot of the comments around meditation tied to social facets. Right. And so we want people to have general well being and the peace and relaxation side of things. And I'm not disputing any of that. But I think we miss entirely the aspects of meditation that are around memory, cognition, focus, concentration, emotional regulation, which are all skills for the workplace. So how do we encourage more of that thinking now? How do, do we weave meditation into work? Is that an appropriate thing to do? Is it a personal choice? Like, what do we do with that? So, Tina, I know you've been doing some of this because you did it with us. Like, what's your take on where meditation fits for the world of work?
[00:16:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it is tricky, right? Because it needs to be volunteer.
Right. You can't force people to do it.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Sit down. Sit down and meditate.
Right?
[00:16:58] Speaker B: People need to want to do it. So I think education is a piece like your podcast here right now, could inspire a workplace to say, okay, what can we do?
So I think education is the first step. I also think it would be a lot easier to implement. And we all know this, if the leaders bought in and practiced and talked about it in front of all their employees and, and saw it as a benefit to them for that top down kind of approach to culture change really, if it's not already in their culture.
But you can do it bottom up and through teams and you can just. A team might say, let's put a project together and start every meeting with a five minute meditation and see what happens. Measure it like any project. Put in some KPIs that are meaningful to your organization and find out if it does change and what the benefits are. And then, oh yeah, look at this. We did this for six months and here's what happened.
And show leadership. Look at this. You know, you could even see shifts. It might impact productivity. Right. Performance errors, like think about when you're stressed or if you're on autopilot, the errors that you make, think about when you slow the thinking cannot stop our thoughts, but we can slow our thinking.
Like the rumination, the worries, the, you know, all the things, the catastrophizing, all the things or the dreaming, the fantasizing, you know, and we can slow that down and see and kind of create space. And that's where creativity and decision making, like good decision making and analysis, that's where that can all happen better when we're not full of all the other things, all the other thoughts.
So I think there's definitely a case for it in the workplace. But. But the workplaces do need to see it as something practical and useful for work. Why would I invest in this either? I just love to give my employees wellness. I want my employees to feel well, which I believe in and 100% agree with. But I know that that's not a selling factor for all organizations or it actually improves our work processes, our performance, our productivity, our creativity, our lower absenteeism, perhaps. I don't. Right. You know, lower conflict. So that's a big one. Conflict in the workplace or just people getting along? Collaborating meditation can actually lower that because you become less activated, you become more probably compassionate. You know, again with practice.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Yes.
One 15 minute meditation session will not solve your team.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: Oh, if only. Right. Every workplace would be perfect.
Yeah. So, you know, there's definitely a case for bringing it to the workplace.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: And, and that, I mean, that's the. So I love that you said that because I do think that we still don't truly buy the connection between wellbeing and organizational performance.
We still don't fully get that the better a person feels, the more happy, engaged and well they are the more they are going to do for you and the better your organization is going to perform. We're still doing stuff as checkboxes like, oh, we did a lunch and learn on mental health. Everybody's had mental health training now. That's great. That's not the same as fixing whatever is causing your people to have mental health challenges in your workplace or be more stressed.
But I recognize that that's not necessarily an overnight move either. Right.
But that piece of this is stuff that improves memory and cognition and focus and attention and decision making and emotional regulation and all those things that as a senior leader you get frustrated by when people don't do give them the tools to enable them to do it. Right. I think that's the, that's the piece of it. And I will talk about, talk about us in a second because that sounds very simplistic. Right? Like we'll just start doing meditation and we. You've played around with it for E3, and I've. Sometimes it's worked and sometimes it's haven't. So I'll talk about why in a second. But Ross, from your perspective, like, what if you're someone who wants to meditate at work but isn't sure how that's going to land? Like, what. Do you have any thoughts on how, you know, someone might integrate meditation into their day?
[00:21:27] Speaker C: Yes. Well, I think, you know, what I've seen too is like, people will stay away from meditation because they believe that. It's like you said earlier, it's woo. It's like the spiritual kind of, you know, thing. But, you know, meditation has been ingrained in Western life for, like, I don't know, 30 years. John Kabat Zinn, I think, was kind of the father bringing, like, meditation to the Western world. So there's all kinds of philosophies around meditation that are much more, you know, secular, I guess I would say. So you don't have to, like, you don't have to have the religious or the woo component because like you were saying, Jess, there's so much science around it now that it's actually really easy to bring it in without any of that baggage, you know, And I think that's a big hang up for people. Like, I've actually had people come to my class, us who go to church every Sunday who have told me that, you know, their, their friends from church won't come to meditation because it's outside of their religious belief. Right.
So, I mean, I think that that is a real barrier and I think that people do need to really consider when you're introducing it to the workplace, you can do it without any of that. You can do it just from a straight up scientific, humanistic perspective. Right. So developing how you're going to integrate it just with the language and also I think being really careful, you know, because meditation, when you're integrating it is also, you know, it's tricky. Like in my classes, I work really hard to, you know, allow people to get into that deep relaxation, but to not trigger because there's also, you know, people carry a lot of trauma. They carry a lot of deep, you know, seated things that you don't want to have that coming up for folks when you're leading a meditation session. So it's important to really, you know, bring in someone maybe professional, who knows how to do this, you know, like Tina, for example, who can integrate this in a way that is not going to, you know, harm when you're trying to help. I think it's really important to, to keep that in mind too.
So. Yeah, so those two things, you know, being cautious about the language around it, making sure it's a humanistic, scientific kind of approach, wellness approach, and bringing in someone who is, you know, trained and certified to lead, I think would be critical for sure.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: That's kind of where. Where I went with it. So I am a big believe the premise of meditation and an inconsistent practitioner. So I would be remiss if I didn't admit that on the podcast. There have been times in my life when I have been very consistent, had great experience with meditation. It's been a kind of regular weekly, if not daily practice and then periods of time where I literally haven't gone near it with a barge bowl and like left it well enough alone.
Yeah, and. And purely and simply, I think some habit, like not in great. My life has changed and therefore the habits that I had around my day would run, got knocked sideways. And when I re instigated new habits, I didn't put them into the mix. And I think that's sometimes the challenge for people that we're talking about habit creation and you need consistency to make those things happen. So for me personally, I think the consistency piece is part of the finding a time when that's the time I'm going to do it. And my day is not too full that I can't find the space for that kind of moment. Which is why I really like your point, Tina, about I can meditate doing the dishes or I could meditate going for a walk. Like these are not. It's not Again, not that sitting down. And I need to listen to a 20 minute calm app podcast on how do I meditate. But the, the workplace. One question I went back on forwards on for quite a while down to the comments you're having because I was like, I truly believe that this is a tool that we should be using in the workplace. I want to role model this stuff. How do we do this? But I also can't make people do it and I don't want to make people do it because that would negate the point of doing it. And so how to introduce it. And so we did bring Cleana in because she's obviously more equipped to teach people how to do this than I certainly am.
And I, I think that was really helpful. And to your, I think earlier point around when people start, I think they need someone to help them figure out how to do it. I don't think I could have said to the team, here's a channel full of resources. And I did consider that, like, do I pay for them to have an app? Right. And they can do it themselves.
But I don't know that that's the best way for people to start. So I think maybe some hand holding in the beginning can be helpful for people to before they figure out what it is they're trying.
And I know some of the team did say to me they really enjoyed our sessions and then they tried to do it on their own and weren't as successful. And I don't want that to be things that people off.
[00:25:50] Speaker C: Yeah, totally.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
If you are talking to.
So there's lots of pieces that can crop up when you talk to people about the concept of meditation and one of which is how we frame what meditation is. And Tina, you raised something earlier about like starting a meeting with a five minute meditation, which is really it because it's something I'm about to try with a team. They don't know it yet. So hopefully this episode comes out after I've got this with them.
Now, I'm not going to call it meditation.
[00:26:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Because again, I don't want like there's a. I think there's a conception about what that is. But I'm very cognizant that they come to the meeting that they have together running.
So they come into the meaning hot. They come in with their heads full of stuff. They're very much in their own headspace of what they need to do. And they're supposed to come into this meeting and suddenly shift into a new headspace where they are more strategic Collaborative, more innovative thinking, big picture, leaving all that behind, collaborate with each other when they're coming at things, very different perspectives. And I just don't think that's a realistic headspace switch. So I'm going to attempt with them to do a five minute grounding activity at the beginning of every meeting and to make that a practice that they could apply. Are there any other thoughts like that or tips that you have that like places where you're like, I've seen someone do this or I've had an organization do it this way. Like what have you seen that you think people might be able to pick up and try, Try anybody.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: I'll go, honestly, like what you just said, like putting it into something that's a right consistent like a team meeting once a week or something. Like always making it the beginning. You don't have to call it meditation. Let's, let's just take a moment to gather ourselves and come to this room. Luckily we do it in yoga class all the time. You know, like take, let's take a few breaths. Let's take a few breaths. Inhale and sigh out, long exhale for nervous system regulation.
You know, like I think just that making it continue like this is what we do. This is how we start. This is how we start. Or you know, a reminder sent out. I don't know, it depends how many people in your workplace. But like some sort of a reminder sent out.
I don't know. After lunch, people are generally back in their seats, probably by 11 30. A little reminder that pops up in on their email or something saying it's time to take five minutes, one minute even, to just, just sit and breathe or relax or just do nothing or. Right. Some people won't do it, of course, but it's the reminder for the people that want to do it because you know how habits. We need a reminder.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: We do, yeah.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: We need the action and we need the reward. Right.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: And what you've done with that is give permission.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: Yes. In the organization. This is. So I've had clients come back to me talking about I really want to do it, but people are staring at me and thinking I'm not doing my work right. It's like I have had people say that to me and I'm like, yeah, exactly. Because the culture is that if you're not doing, doing, doing, you're not working right now. If you have your own office space, it's a little bit easier. But if you're working around other people and you take a minute and you're like, I'm just going to meditate for five minutes.
You know, like, they're like, ha. You're getting paid to meditate. Right, Right.
[00:29:18] Speaker A: I had a senior leader. I was meditating at the end of a. We were in a lunch retreat thing for the day and we were all breaking for lunch. I took 10 minutes, put my podcast in and was sitting on a chair to meditate. And they walked past and like, gave me a funny look. And then later they're, what were you doing? And I was explaining. They're like, don't do that. It's really weird. And I was like, this is a senior leader in the organization. I was like, okay. So that would be an indication of when some education required. Yes, yes.
[00:29:45] Speaker C: I love the idea that Thich Nhat Hanh used to do so. Thich Nhat Hanh is a Buddhist monk or Zen monk, I guess you would say. He's passed away now, but he had.
His monastery is called Plum Village. And so what he would do is every hour he would ring the bell.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Bell.
[00:30:01] Speaker C: And so he was very much about the bell. Right. Mindfulness and the ringing of the bell. And so he would ring the bell to just remind people to just stop for a moment and like, take a breath and become mindful. And that's the other thing is, you know, you don't have to call it meditation. You can call it mindfulness. Right. That's the kind of Western approach to it. So. So yeah, I just always love that idea about, you know, you'd be at his monastery and every hour you'd hear the bell and you'd be, all right, I need to just kind of have a moment. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.
[00:30:30] Speaker B: I used to have a bracelet that would buzz every hour, and that was my reminder. I felt the buzz on my wrist and I went, oh, I just have to take a pause.
I mean, it's, it's about creating the habit. So it doesn't have to be a five minute meditation.
It can be a pause to take a breath and observe what's going on in my body, in my thoughts, in my emotions, in my environment. Like, what is going on right at this moment. And the. That alone is a really powerful practice.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: I need a bell.
[00:31:02] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: But I mean, I think just to go back to the permission piece for a second, I think that's really important. Even, like, so the chances are you're not going to necessarily see your senior leader role model it unless you do classes. And now so many people are hybrid. Like, that's probably not realistic for a Lot of folks to implement something like that in their world. But if you are the one sending out reminders, that can be a form of permission for people to say, no, no, we want you to do this. As long as you don't undo it by then saying, why aren't you at a meeting or somewhere where I've just told you to take some time to do something else?
This is not a checkbox exercise.
But no, I think that makes a whole lot of sense if we can try and role model those pieces and make it less of a thing.
Some of what you're talking about is micro moments of. Building micro moments into people's day would be super interesting. So if there's folks listening who are doing this, I'd love, love for you to weigh in on any of our social media platforms with your suggestions. If you found ways to make it work for your organization, that's great. I might go back to trying some things with E3 and see where we get to.
I want to come back to something you said earlier on in the, in the podcast episode, Roz, where you said you've met lots of people who feel like they can't.
So if there's somebody sitting here and going like that, yeah, sure, guys, but I've, I've tried and I can't. What would, what would you like to say to them right now?
[00:32:28] Speaker C: Well, it's just, it's so common. Like, you know, like I said earlier, it's that people think that if you close your eyes and your mind is busy that you're failing.
And that's just, you know, that's like going to the gym and trying to pick up the 50 pound weight and you can't lift it and you're like, well, I'm done, I'm leaving. I'm never coming back to the gym. I guess I just can't work out. You know, it's like, right, it's like, yes, your mind is busy because, you know, so much of us, so much of our day to day is we're just consumed by our thoughts. Right? And that's, that's really the big issue, I think with meditation as well, is that we're so consumed by our thoughts in Western culture that people think they are their thoughts.
And so that's a big thing too, is for people to, you know, when they get started to realize, I'm not my thoughts, I can observe my thoughts, I can let them go by.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: Right?
[00:33:13] Speaker C: So if you sit for the first time, you find that you're having difficulty, it's okay. That's the way it is. You just have to keep trying. But I find, too, that, you know, another option for people is to try different styles of meditation. So, like Tina had mentioned earlier, like, for me, you know, when I started meditating, I had kind of the same thing happen where I felt like my mind was just so busy and I couldn't kind of get it to calm down where I could be that observer. It was just too much.
And so I was at a Buddhist retreat, and one of the teachers taught us this. It's a type of meditation where you're naming, so you're watching your thoughts go by, and if you all of a sudden, you find yourself thinking about lunch or something, then you just label it.
[00:33:52] Speaker A: It.
[00:33:52] Speaker C: You're, like, thinking, right? Or if you catch yourself hearing something, oh, there's a bird, there's a sound, there's a truck going by. You notice you're hooked on it. You label it hearing, right? So you kind of. You start to label things as opposed to letting your thoughts hook you and carry you away.
So that's another technique. Then there's japa meditation, which is using Amala. So using beads, where you tactile. For people who are tactile, it can be really helpful to hold Amala and, like, actually feel it through your fingers and recite a little mantra, you know? And your mantra could be like, peace, strength, calm. It could be whatever. It doesn't need to be Sanskrit. You know what I mean?
[00:34:31] Speaker A: You could just.
[00:34:31] Speaker C: It could be whatever you want. You could be the name of your dog. I don't know. Like, just something that makes you feel calm. Right. It brings you to the present moment. So that's the other thing for people is, like, if you're trying with one style or technique and you're having difficulty, there are multiple techniques. And so try a bunch of different kinds and see what works for you and find the one that works for you. Because for me, labeling works really well. Well, you know, other people drop. Other people can just sit and be, you know, just have that peacefulness. Be able to get ahead of it that way. But, yeah, that would be my recommendation. Try different styles.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: Cool.
[00:35:04] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:05] Speaker A: And the other one I hear quite a lot was I said, look, in a conversation with somebody about the potential of meditating at work, they looked at me. It was brilliant. And they went, yes. I don't have time to eat. When am I ever going to have time to meditate? So, Tina, what would. What would your response to that? Yeah.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: Is that to me?
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:35:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So that is probably the number one excuse or reason for people not to meditate is I don't have time.
And what I try to help them with is especially like if you're doing some one on one coaching or something is to, I mentioned earlier, like number one, just make it part of something else that you're already doing.
So. So I like using washing the dishes because it's a pretty boring task and our minds go all over the place. Unless we're listening to a podcast, in which case sometimes my mind still goes all over the place.
But when you're washing the dishes, you can actually focus on the feeling of the water in your hands, the feeling of the plate, the sound of the water, like all the sensations that you get and hear, see smell, the smell of the, the whatever. It might not be a nice smell. How do I feel about that yucky smell? Oh my gosh, I do not like that. What does that feel like in my body? Like that unpleasant feeling, you know, you're getting into different layers of it and noticing when you trail off into, oh my God, I gotta do this and this and this and this tomorrow and it's like, oh, look at me gone off. I'm not paying attention to washing the dishes anymore. I'm gonna start paying attention to washing the dishes. And again. And that alone is meditation practice. So it takes out the time factor. I know we have dishwashers, but you know, you can do that with anything. You know, making the bed, brushing your teeth, all the things that we already do.
We can make it part of meditate while we're doing it. The other thing that I do recommend for, because some people want a sit down meditation practice and they have trouble doing it.
Start where you are.
So start with making a habit of doing something every single day.
And that might be the reminder that goes, take a breath. And when you can take a breath and it's so automatic, you do it before the reminder pops up.
Then you can probably meditate for one minute or 30 seconds, right?
And it has to be so easy that it's automatic before you go to the next step. And so I think what people do often is I want to meditate. I'm going to set my timer for 15 minutes and I'm going to sit in my special space, my room at the same time every day and I'm going to meditate for 15 minutes. And it doesn't happen because number one, life is wild and wonderful and the same time every day. Most people are not able to sit in their special place and they might not have a special place because all of their family are, you know, are in the whole house. It's like, where am I going to the bathroom?
Go ahead, meditate on the toilet, in the shower.
[00:38:10] Speaker C: In the shower.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: Shower is another great place. Right. The sensations of the water.
There's so much, so many times through the day. So if time is a factor, that is my number one tip. Do it with something you're already doing. And if you want to start a sitting practice, we call it sitting.
That's just meditating.
Then just one. One breath, pause once a day, twice a day. Do for one minute a day until it's so automatic that you don't even think about it.
[00:38:43] Speaker A: Yes. Build in baby pieces. I love it. Build from where you are, where you are. Love it. It got me thinking now that I.
So I'm. I'm quite good, actually, before bed because I will do. We will do. Now that my. I've hooked my husband into doing the body relaxation, we'll do that. And then I usually play an actual meditation afterwards. But you know what? I don't do that probably. So. I am terrible at lunchtime for eating on the run. I am absolutely terrible for. I've given myself not enough time to eat. I stuff something down and go back to what I'm doing, which is not good for me anyway, physically in terms of digestion. So I'm listening to you. I'm like, no, I am going to stop and I'm going to practice mindful eating at lunchtime and I'm going to focus on eating whatever it is I'm eating. All the sensations of that eating can be my other daily practice. And then I will see how I can build from there. I think that's a. Yeah.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: And you'll enjoy your food more, I bet.
[00:39:39] Speaker C: Yeah, true.
[00:39:40] Speaker B: Also, don't compare. Like, don't look at all the wellness people out there and go, oh, my God, they're doing it for half hour every single day. Look how happy they are.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: Western world, right? Like social media. Like, I'm a parent guru and I have my special place with my 14 pillows and three cats that meditate with, like, no people.
[00:40:03] Speaker B: That's great at, like, Right? It is great if people. People do that. But also it doesn't have to look like that.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: It's not a standard. There's not a good place to get to, is what I'm hearing. Like, we need to focus on that because. Awesome.
So I'm super helpful. Hopefully there's some nuggets in there for folks to Think about how do you pick up a meditation practice if you want to live longer, you know, have better memory. This up. This is for you. How do we maybe try some of this on in the workplace, figure out kind of weaving it into our day.
What would you like to leave folks with? If you could leave people with one thought to take away from today's session, what would it be?
[00:40:37] Speaker C: Right.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: What would you.
[00:40:38] Speaker C: Oh, she threw me to the wolves, Tina. She threw me to the wolves there.
[00:40:42] Speaker B: Sorry.
[00:40:43] Speaker A: One thought.
[00:40:45] Speaker C: One thought is like my worst. This is my worst.
You know, just. Just have compassion. That's what I always tell my students when we're, When I'm teaching in the barn is, you know, have compassion for yourself.
[00:41:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:00] Speaker C: With your practice. It's the biggest thing, honestly, like, just being able to allow whatever shows up to show up, allow it to appear and let it go.
And if that's. My mind is too busy, if that's certain feelings, if that's certain emotions, it's all good. Just remember to treat yourself with compassion as you're developing your practice so that you'll keep coming back. Because if you keep telling yourself you're not doing it right or you're not good enough, you're not gonna do it ever again.
[00:41:28] Speaker A: So.
[00:41:29] Speaker C: Yeah. So have love and patience for your.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Yourself. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Tina.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: Well, I probably would have said the same thing, so it's probably very similar.
You know, there's a kind of a, A, A concept in mindfulness called non striving.
And I would, I think that that's when you're trying to get.
Workplaces are so goal oriented.
But this is not.
This is not about making it to 20 minutes on your cushion. Right.
It's really about, this is what I can do today. And yay me for doing it right or in this moment. It's really about just being with whatever occurs and whatever is that day or that moment and not getting somewhere else. And I think that is something that I get hooked on. I try to be like, okay, 10 minutes today or 30 minutes today, I'm gonna fit it in, you know, and. And that doesn't really work. It's not really what meditation is. It's not about reaching a goal.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: Yeah, but that sounds like it would be the perfect antidote to some of what we have going on right now. If you can find some time when you can create space for yourself, be kind to yourself, not have to strive to get there, not have to compare to anybody else and just do whatever it is you can do in the moment.
And make that part of your day. I think that might be quite a nice antidote to some of the stress that we have from the way that we live today.
[00:43:00] Speaker C: So awesome.
[00:43:01] Speaker A: Totally. Thank you both super much for joining me. Super much. That's pretty. Thank you both very much for joining me.
I will now be taking those nuggets away and thinking about how do I actually apply them, because that's the whole point. And hopefully those of you listening, you took some great nuggets away from this. We'd love to hear on social media channels if you have tried something, if you're trying something else that you would recommend to other people, please share the wisdom because it's that way that we make work better for everybody. So thank you both very much. So that's a wrap for today. Thank you very much for joining in. And if you liked our conversation today, please do like and subscribe. You can find us on Apple, Spotify and YouTube. You can also check out our websites, E3CA and no Neuroworks CA for more information about what we do in the wonderful world of work. So thanks again for joining in and I look forward to seeing you on another episode.
