Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] The mindset that you have in a conversation, like a feedback conversation, is the most important thing. You can prep all you like for a feedback conversation, and I would suggest you do if it's a serious conversation, but you have no idea what's going to come back the other way. And so that conversation is like a game of tennis. You can practice all your shots all you like, but you have no idea what's going to come back over the net. And so standing there ready with a forehand is not going to work if the person gives you a backhand. So mindset is really, for me, about curiosity, understanding what is causing this, whatever it is to happen, and how do I explore that with the person and help them choose a different way forwards.
[00:00:38] Hello, everyone, I am Jess Chapman, and this is our podcast, Wired to Work, where we explore making work work better for everybody. Feedback is a topic I get asked about time and time again. And no matter how many times we do workshops on the subject or leadership development sessions, everybody wants more help with the feedback thing. And so what I thought I would do is we're going to do a feedback episode, but there's quite a lot to cover, so we're break it up into two, maybe three. If Roz tells me it needs to be three episodes, I'm going to go through those things. So I'm going to talk about why is feedback so challenging? What is it that goes on for us? How do we then make feedback conversations nicer? And I'm going to walk you through a framework that we've created for having a feedback conversation, which is unsurprisingly called nicer. So that's the plan. Those of you who are subscribers to our new community will get some extra content and tools on this approach. So if this is something you want to dig into, that is definitely worth a look. So let's start the conversation about the wonderful world of feedback. So Ken Blanchard, who is a management guru, said a long time ago, feedback is the breakfast of champions. And it's certainly true from a neuroscience perspective that getting that information that we learn through that loop, right, you do something, there is a reaction to what you do, and your brain processes and says, I should do that again, or I should tailor what I'm doing. And so, in the world of work, feedback is a really important tool for help us to continue to perform, but also to grow and do things differently. Unfortunately, uh, the research suggests that only about a third of us feel like we're actually getting the feedback that we need to perform in the workplace. When I ask folks in our sessions and on our training, why, given we all want feedback, but statistics show most people, more than two thirds, would like to have more feedback. Why is it that we don't give it? The answers are, drumroll, please. Time. And I'm worried about what the other person's gonna feel or think as a result. So the time piece is interesting because time is a bit of a fallacy, right? You're never actually gonna have enough time for need to do. So. Time is a function of how much value you put on something. And so if you are not finding enough time, that's because the value that you see from the activity is either low or the complexity you feel for doing the activity feels higher than the value you think you're going to get from doing it. Hopefully that makes sense for everybody. When you're thinking about feedback. If you're sitting in your head, I don't get time for feedback. That's because it's either something that you're not prioritizing heavily enough as a value add, or it feels so difficult for you to do that your brain keeps saying, yeah, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna put that over there until I figured it out, and then I'll come back to it. Practicing feedback and finding ways and tools like NOISA to make it easier for you can balance that value to complexity ratio and make it easier for you to give feedback. So that's the first thing I'd say about time. The worried about impact thing is totally common and really great because I want people to be empathetic at work, and I want everyone to be thinking about, how does the other person feel? But when it stops us from actually giving needed feedback, then it's getting in the way of something that could be really benef. Beneficial. And so for me, the worried about impact part is about how we approach and structure the feedback that we're going to give. And so in this part, we're going to talk about approach, and then the next part, we're going to talk about that nicer model that gives us that structure. So first of all, let's talk about why we find feedback so challenging. Now, there's going to be some of you going, I don't, I love feedback. But for the most part, many of us, when we think about feedback, have a bit of a reaction to, ooh, is that going to be. Is that going to be a good thing for us? And that's because as humans, we are wired to think about threat and reward. So all the time, you're doing everything. You're doing your pfc, this bit, remember under your forehead, that's always looking at the world around you and going, is what's happening right now going to be good for me, or do I think it might be bad for me? And if it's good for me, I'm going to run full tilt towards it, put my hand up, volunteer all of those things. If I'm not sure, if I think maybe it's going to be not so great for me, then I'm going to maybe avoid it, procrastinate to do all of those types of things. And so feedback can have a significant triggering effect on those elements. So the Neural Leadership Institute has a really great model around this called the scarf model, which I've talked about many, many, many times in sessions. So if you're interested in this, you can kind of look that model up. But a big consideration for us as human beings is social threat and reward. How we relate to and connect to other people, how important we are to other people, and how much we belong in the group that we're in. And that makes sense when you think about it, because when we were cavemen, back in cavemen days, you needed to be part of a tribe, you needed to be part of a group to survive, right? Today we're not, you know, fighting mammoths and those typ types of things, but we still have the same need to connect, to have connection and belonging, and that is including at work. So we need to feel connected to other people, and so we can have concern that the feedback we're going to get is going to affect that degree of connection and belonging. So that's one of the things that can happen. We also tend to want to have certainty about what's going on. We like a degree of control over the things that impact us. We want to be treated fairly and so on. And so your brain is constantly thinking about those things and assessing the world based on those things and then deciding what you do about it. And the challenge is that that feedback can make people worry that they're not as important as they thought they were, or they're not as good as they thought they were. It can make you uncertain about what is coming. You don't often have control over the conversation or when it's going to happen. You may question the fairness of the information that's shared with you, and you may worry about how this is going to affect the relationship you have with your leader or your team. And so, in and of itself, feedback can have a triggering effect on people and make them worry all the time. Right. So you can be those alarm bells go off when we want to have that conversation. And of course, as we've talked about, when your alarm bells go off, right, you get that stress response, you stop thinking rationally, your cortisol does a bunch of different things to the brain, your amygdala kicks in and you have that kind of fight or flight response and you get more emotional and reactive about things. And so that actually perpetuates the cycle because we then start worrying that's the reaction you're going to have every time you have the feedback. And you start anticipating having that reaction every time you have the feedback and we start avoiding the feedback when actually at the bottom of all of this, feedback can be an incredibly valuable thing for everybody. And it is fundamentally how we learn, how do we tackle that? What do we do about that? Well, there's two things to think about. We want to normalize feedback, right? So once you have something and it feels normal, it is no longer a threat for you. So we need to normalize feedback and then we want to minimize the likelihood of a threat trigger in the feedback we're giving. But so let's talk a little bit about normalizing feedback. What does that actually mean? Well, the silly is we avoid giving feedback, but actually if we gave feedback more, it would become normal and people would realize that feedback conversations don't necessarily have to be a big deal, can be perfectly wonderful, can help you have fabulous insights about things, can help you realize things about yourself, can help you unlock your potential, take on jobs you never knew you could have, learn to do things you never realized were possible and all of those good things, but only if we make it something that happens on a regular basis. And so that's very much tied to creating an environment that is safe for the conversation, but also where feedback is anticipated, reinforced well, and some cases asked for it. So there is a lot of research that suggests if somebody asks for feedback, then they are more likely to take receive it well and action that feedback than if it is a structured process they didn't ask for. Which is kind of, I think, a bit of a no brainer. But that's what the research also shows. Now some of you are thinking, well that's nice, Jess, but I can't wait for everybody to ask for feedback because some people never ask for feedback.
[00:08:24] No, but you can focus on creating habits and routines around feedback that make feedback a regular course of action. So it's one of the reasons that we Talk about having regular one to ones with people. So if you have to add an extra meeting into the conversation to give somebody feedback, their brain's gonna go, what's that about? What's going on now? So if I'm like, never, like, have regular one to ones with you. And I'm like, suddenly all of a sudden, let's use Ros as an example. I don't have regular meetings with Ros. All of a sudden I phone Roz up and say, can I talk to you about something Strai?
[00:08:55] Because of how people are wired, Roz is very unlikely to think, oh, Jess has good news. She is much more likely to think, oh, Lord, what's going on now? What did I do? Is Jess unhappy? And all the other negative things that go along with it. Because we are wired to deal with threat first, right? So if you can create space with a connection with somebody that allows you to put feedback into the conversation without making it an extra thing, then you're gonna create habits around that conversation that make that conversation feel more comfortable.
[00:09:26] So that's why we encourage Pierre Bader, back in our days when we were unlocking your people as a title on the podcast, talked about, if you can only get people to do one thing, it would be have a one to one with their team. That would be on top of my list too. Because then when I'm dealing with the team, I don't need to have separate conversations for the feedback that might trigger their threat alarms. It's just part and parcel of the regular conversations that I have with those people. The other part of normalizing it, which we started to talk about, was this idea of permission or asking for feedback. Permission is a really interesting thing because asking somebody's permission to do something triggers those alarm bells in a good way, right? So you're saying basically saying, somebody, is it all right if I do this? Then you're saying, I care enough about your opinion and where you're at to ask you. I'm giving you control over whether the conversation happens. Now you have some certainty because I've just forewarned you this is happening and all those things. So there are times when asking somebody if you can give them some feedback is a really good approach. And also role modeling asking for it yourself. So if you're a leader and you want your team to be comfortable asking for and giving feedback feedback, then you need to be role modeling asking for feedback yourself. And when you get it from the team, you want to thank them for giving it to you, and you want to make sure that you're actioning it and you're sharing your responses to them and so on. That will create more of a normalization.
[00:10:45] That feedback is a good thing. Just to tie it back to something we talked about before. So we did an episode with Megan Morrison where we talked about learning and she talked about the lessons learned idea at the end of kind of meetings and things. And it's a similar idea if you sit down as a leader after you've done something and go, can I. Can I use you as a sense check and just bounce off you how that went? Like, I wasn't sure this did very well. What were your thoughts? I think I could improve on this. You are normalizing the idea that everything doesn't have to be perfect and that people will have things they want to work on and things they want to improve. And you are demonstrating vulnerability to other people, which makes it okay for them to then be vulnerable with you. So when we're thinking about normalizing, creating space for it and then role modeling it and considering where permission might come into that are really important for creating the kind of conditions for good feedback conversations. As we begin to normalize feedback in an organization, we then want to be thinking about how do we, when we actually have the feedback conversations, do our best to minimize the likelihood of somebody being triggered in that conversation. So those threat alarm bells going off. And that's a combination in our world of the approach that we take and the way you structure the conversation. Right now in this episode, I'm gonna talk a little bit more about approach and next time we'll dig into that nicer structure for how you actually go through the conversation. There's quite a lot out there around how to have good conversations and good dialogue. And that feedback should be two way and all those things, and they're all true. But the most overarching thing that I would talk about when I talk about approach is mindset and tone.
[00:12:22] So often while I watch leaders have quote unquote difficult conversations or feedback conversations, what happens is we get caught up in the significance of the conversation and how serious something might be. And so what we end up doing is going into those conversations with all that going on in our heads, and we become a different version of ourselves. Sometimes we become more serious or more formal trying to get to somewhere in the conversation and it becomes like rushed or very one directional about what we're doing. When realistically, if you need to give somebody some feedback, what you're doing is exploring with somebody why they're doing what they're doing and how they're going to change. And so, more than anything else, I would say to people, the mindset that you have in a conversation, like a feedback conversation, is the most important thing. You can prep all you like for a feedback conversation, and I would suggest you do if it's a serious conversation, but you have no idea what's going to come back the other way, right? And so that conversation is like a game of tennis. You can practice all your shots all you like, but you have no idea what's going to come back over the net. And so standing there ready with a forehand is not going to work if the person gives you a backhand. And so you're better off taking the right mindset into that conversation and having the structure that we're going to talk about next time to help guide you. And so mindset is really, for me about curiosity, understanding what is causing this, whatever it is to happen, and how do I explore that with the person and help them choose a different way forwards. If you are in a mindset of concerned about something, if you're annoyed about something, if you're like, oh, this is a really big deal and I feel pressure to fix it with this person or I've got to get them back on track, no matter how well structured you are in that conversation, it is the mindset that you have that you will transmit to the other person. So when we communicate, we use words, tone of voice and body language. Your body language is by far the loudest, then your tone of voice, then your words. So it doesn't matter how well you script yourself, if you're going into that conversation, what I call crispy, right? Then that other person is going to read crispy off you before you even open your mouth. Their brain is going to go, oh, Jess is crispy right now. This isn't good. And go into defense mode before you even begin. Begin. So thinking about, how do you get into a good place, a good, relaxed, curious, exploratory place before you had feedback conversations with somebody? A couple of suggestions for me if you're like, I have no idea how to do that one. If you are the kind of person that needs to do it, go vent. If it's the thing that's wound you up, you're really annoyed about it, but you really need the person to tackle it. You don't want to carry that into the conversation. Go vent to somebody else privately who's confidential is good that get it out of your system, write some stuff down, think about good intention we talked about intention quite a lot on the podcast up until now. This person did not get out of bed today planning to do whatever it is that you need to give them feedback on what is the perhaps sensible reason why they did what they did. All of those things will help you get into a good mindset before you have the conversation that you're going to have. First part is mindset. Get into the right mindset, or as close as you possibly can to mindset. That is the other reason where you may have heard you should give feedback as close as as possible to the event that requires the feedback. Yes, as long as you can be in the right mindset to have a neutral, curious, open, warm conversation. If you so close to the event that you're still wearing the crispiness you are feeling, don't have the conversation at that particular time. Go and venture to some. Somewhere, someone sensibly, and then come back when you can do it. Once you think you've got a good mindset for the conversation, then we're thinking about approaching the conversation. This is back to the seriousness piece. There is a really good book called Radical Candor. If you're not a book reader, you also watch the clips and stuff on YouTube. There's some shorts in there. We'll share some of the resources on that as well. And it talks about a framework that we use, a very similar one in the world of neuroscience. So they would talk about caring and other things. We talk about warm and direct. So where you want to be when you're having a conversation with someone is you want to be warm and direct. So what I mean by that is, if you think about directness, what I often see people do in feedback conversations is what I call the waffle to soften.
[00:16:26] So you start kind of dancing around the topic and you're kind of hedging your bets on. You're like, so how are you today? How is it going? Desperately hoping the person's gonna say, well, actually, this is what's going on for me. And I know I really upset you in the meeting this morning, but this is why that's not gonna happen. That's really rarely gonna happen. And then we do fishing, right? We do the maybe if I drop a few nuggets in there and say, so like, how was the meeting for you this morning? And the person says, I like, great. And you're like, damn it, I was hoping you were going to say, yes, I know I interrupted you and that was really wrong of me. And how do I fix that Again, fishy And then sometimes we just do the dancing, right? Which is like now, you know, it's not really a big deal, but if, you know, when you're in meetings, if you could spend a little bit of time just thinking about, like, I don't want to worry about it, but just spend a bit of time thinking about, I've lost, I'm lost. I have no idea what you're talking to me about. Like, just spit it out and get to the point. What are we talking about now? And all of those things happen because we're worried about what the other person on the receiving end is gonna think or feel. And so what we do is we end up being less direct in the conversation in order to make it better for the other person. The problem is that largely less direct means more confusing. So if we dance around or fish, right, or hope or cross our fingers and hope the person's gonna tell us they're self aware and they already know what they did, we're most likely going to be disappointed and the conversation is not gonna work the way we want it to. It' really hard if you say things like, so how do you think the meeting went this morning? And in your head you're thinking, it was terrible. And they go, it was great. You've now got to take a contrary posture to them and say, oh, I didn't think it was great. And all of a sudden you've put yourself at odds with those people, that person, right? So that's not the best way of tackling things. You want to be direct in the way that you approach things and just put the issue on the table. We'll talk about this a lot more when we do the next episode. But if you're worried about how someone is going to receive the conversation, that's where the warm part comes in. In, right? So rather than becoming less direct in the conversation, you would keep the content clear, short, sharp, succinct, direct, but you want to warm up the rest of it. So warm up your tone. Think about the environment that you're in. Think about the body language you display, think about the choice of language you use. All of those things make you warmer and it's warmer. That is what will the other person will respond to because it's warm. That says, we're still connected and I'm here to support you. But we don't try and make it feel better for the other person by losing the direction, directness of the message. All in all, you're trying to normalize feedback by creating regular space and time for those conversations by role modeling those conversations by asking for permission if you need to do it outside of a normal practice, you're thinking about the mindset that you're carrying when you're going into those conversations. How do I get to a place when I'm relaxed, curious, comfortable, exploratory in this conversation? And then we're trying to take an approach where I'm warm and supportive and and then clear and direct in the questions that I'm asking or the things that I'm putting on the table. But the way that I'm showing up in the conversation is warm, relaxed and friendly. If you do those things, you're less likely to trigger those threat alarm bells for somebody else and you'll keep the conversation in a good place. So that gives you some sense of what to think about when you're kind of doing setup and approach for feedback. In the next episode, we're going to talk about what you do to structure your feedback. And that's our nicer framework that was specifically designed to help you avoid those threat alarm bells and stay in a really good friendly place with someone while you're having those feedback conversations. So that's up next and there'll be more resources around this in our Patreon community, so you can click the link below to sign up. So that's a wrap for today. Thank you very much for joining in. And if you liked our conversation today, please do like and subscribe. You can find us on Apple, Spotify and YouTube.
[00:20:16] You can also check out our websites E3CA and Neuroworks CA for more information about what we do in the wonderful world of work. So thanks again for joining in and I look forward to seeing you on another episode.
